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Old 07-26-2016, 09:55 AM   #1
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Ford F53 V 10 vrs a DP

I am looking to upgrade and have a 36 ft gasser now. Was wondering what HP DP is equal in power to a V10. So I know where to start. What size do you recommend for some hill climbing in a 40+ foot coach. 300, 360, 400, 450?
Is there a comparison chart out there?

Thanks
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Old 07-26-2016, 10:12 AM   #2
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You're trying to compare apple and oranges. Diesel engines don't deliver power like a gas engine so there can be no direct comparison horse power for horsepower. Also, all very heavy coaches are diesel powered. I pulled the same trailer with a 270 hp gas powered truck and 250 hp diesel truck and the difference was night and day with the diesel performing much better in all areas. Diesel engines tend to put out massive amounts of torque with their horse power so they tend to tow and haul better at lower rpm than a gas engine. Gas engines tend to put out similar horse power and torque numbers making them a little better in acceleration. For what its worth, we have a 31,500 lb DP with a 350 hp Cummins and it's more than adequate. I think a gas coach might feel more lively accelerating, but generally won't perform as well in other areas. I think I wouldn't like anything less than 350 hp/1050 ft/lbs of torque in a 40' coach.
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Old 07-26-2016, 11:25 AM   #3
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There are quite a few threads on the differences between gas and diesel engines here. Search through and read a couple to get a flavor for the difference.

I would suggest a more important criteria is to find a floor plan that both you and your partner both agree on. You will spend more time sleeping and sitting in the MH than driving it and any quality MH builder will make sure that you have enough power to get between point A and B, but domestic tranquility only occurs when both of you are happy. Start with floor plans and layout requirements first, then worry about drive train, power and miles per gallon.
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Old 07-26-2016, 11:29 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkrobath View Post
I am looking to upgrade and have a 36 ft gasser now. Was wondering what HP DP is equal in power to a V10. So I know where to start. What size do you recommend for some hill climbing in a 40+ foot coach. 300, 360, 400, 450?

Is there a comparison chart out there?



Thanks

When we were looking for DP in the 40' range my must have list included not the smaller ISB class engine. Most any engine that was larger was ok.
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Old 07-26-2016, 05:05 PM   #5
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You're trying to compare apple and oranges. Diesel engines don't deliver power like a gas engine so there can be no direct comparison horse power for horsepower...

I disagree. Horsepower is horsepower, no matter how it is produced. This IS an apples to apples comparison.

The only difference between the Ford V-10 and the typical diesel is the RPM at which the horsepower is produced. The diesel will hit its HP peak somewhere around 2,000 RPM, while you'll have to spin that Ford up to about 4,500 RPM to get maximum HP out of it. But HP is HP, and that 362 HP V-10 will perform just as well as a 360 HP diesel, if it is driven correctly.
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Old 07-26-2016, 05:58 PM   #6
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I disagree. Horsepower is horsepower, no matter how it is produced. This IS an apples to apples comparison.

The only difference between the Ford V-10 and the typical diesel is the RPM at which the horsepower is produced. The diesel will hit its HP peak somewhere around 2,000 RPM, while you'll have to spin that Ford up to about 4,500 RPM to get maximum HP out of it. But HP is HP, and that 362 HP V-10 will perform just as well as a 360 HP diesel, if it is driven correctly.
Rich do you just decide do disagree with me on general principle? You picked one sentence out of one of my posts in the towing forum and and did the same thing you did here--quote part of my replay and ignore the rest. The fact is a 360 hp gas engine will have what? 500 ft/lb of torque while my 350 hp Cummins has 1050 lbs of torque. If you had quoted my whole post you would have included that part of my explanation.
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Old 07-26-2016, 06:30 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Rich-n-Linda View Post
I disagree. Horsepower is horsepower, no matter how it is produced. This IS an apples to apples comparison.

The only difference between the Ford V-10 and the typical diesel is the RPM at which the horsepower is produced. The diesel will hit its HP peak somewhere around 2,000 RPM, while you'll have to spin that Ford up to about 4,500 RPM to get maximum HP out of it. But HP is HP, and that 362 HP V-10 will perform just as well as a 360 HP diesel, if it is driven correctly.
I'd like to see you get a 36,000lb coach going up a hill with a 350hp gas engine. If your assertion were correct then you'd have no issues putting a high strung, 350 hp 2.0ltr, 4 cyl. gas engine in a truck and using that to pull a 45' 5th wheel. Try to visualize a 2 liter engine in a dually pick up towing a fifth wheel. There won't be enough torque to get the thing moving. People seem to forget that the torque is doing the work, the horsepower figure is just telling you how fast that work is getting done.
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Old 07-26-2016, 06:51 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by dkrobath View Post
I am looking to upgrade and have a 36 ft gasser now. Was wondering what HP DP is equal in power to a V10. So I know where to start. What size do you recommend for some hill climbing in a 40+ foot coach. 300, 360, 400, 450?
Is there a comparison chart out there?

Thanks
I would recommend starting by finding a brand and a floor plan that work for you. At 40ft+ you'll be seeing at least 350hp. I'd worry more about making sure the rig is comfortable and can handle what you want to do. Make sure you're not going to be buying a rig whose front axle is overloaded the second you fill the tanks and climb into the drivers seat.
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Old 07-26-2016, 07:32 PM   #9
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Trying to answer your question, we often travel with freinds who have a V10 powered airbus 36 ft. Ours is a tradewinds 36 ft. 300hp the two machines are good runnig mates until we hit the mountains and we walk away from the v10. The pacbrake helps on the downhill.
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Old 07-26-2016, 08:23 PM   #10
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Rich do you just decide do disagree with me on general principle? You picked one sentence out of one of my posts in the towing forum and and did the same thing you did here--quote part of my replay and ignore the rest. The fact is a 360 hp gas engine will have what? 500 ft/lb of torque while my 350 hp Cummins has 1050 lbs of torque. If you had quoted my whole post you would have included that part of my explanation.
LOL! I can assure you it's nothing personal. You give me far too much credit for having a good memory. I don't remember the other post at all. I think this coincidence took place because you may have made a similar statement about horsepower and torque in that other post. This is also an area of performance that interests me, so I've done a lot of reading and studying so I can fully understand it. Hopefully I can now fully explain it!

As I said earlier, horsepower is horsepower, no matter how it is produced. And it's not magic. HP is a function of both torque and RPM. An engine that produces tremendous amounts of torque at a low RPM, like a diesel, can produce lots of HP at a low RPM. By the same token, an engine that does not produce a lot of torque at low RPM simply has to turn over faster to produce more HP.

Torque is only half of the power equation. Think of it this way. If I have a shaft that is exerting 1,250 lb/ft of torque, but it is not turning, how many HP do I have? The answer? ZERO. The shaft is not turning, therefore no work is being performed, therefore no HP is being developed.

There are small, 4-cylinder engines in cars today that produce only 250 lb/ft of torque, but with turbo charging, nitrous and other performance tweaks they can develop well over 400 HP! And they will give a big, 400 cubic inch V8 a run for their money. But in order to produce that HP they have to spin at very high RPM. An engine that develops 250 lb/ft of torque turning over at 7,500 RPM will produce 357 HP. If I put that little engine in a motor home, and then geared it properly so that at 7,500 RPM in 5th gear I could go only 60-65 mph, that coach would go up a hill just as fast a coach with a 350 HP gas engine or a 350 HP diesel. The ONLY difference is the RPM that the engine is turning and the gearing required to gear down the higher RPM engine to normal road speeds.

I mention gearing because that subject is usually lost in these kinds of discussions, yet it is critically important. If I put that little 4-cylinder engine into a motor home with the same Allison transmission and rear end gears as used with an ISL diesel, that little engine would fall flat on its face. It would barely be able to move the coach because the diesel gearing is WAY too tall for that little engine.

However, if I put that little engine in a coach and followed it up with appropriate high-number rear end gear ratio to properly gear down the engine and match the high rpm engine to normal road speeds, it would then work just fine. The engine would make a lot of noise screaming at high RPM and likely wouldn't last very long as it is constantly being pushed to its limits, but while it was still running it would get the coach over the road at normal speeds.

Here are a few numbers to compare:
Cummins ISL: 900 lb/ft of Torque @ 2,100 RPM = 360 HP
Ford V-10: 450 lb/ft of Torque @ 4,200 RPM = 360 HP
Small 4-Cyl: 250 lb/ft of Torque @ 7,500 RPM = 357 HP

Note that the torque goes down, the RPM goes up, but the HORSEPOWER remains the same.

Horsepower is Horsepower, no matter what size or kind of engine is developing it. It's tough thing to get your head around. I hope I've explained it well enough so it's understandable.
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Old 07-26-2016, 08:31 PM   #11
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Horsepower = torque X RPM / 5252.

Engines are dynoed and the torque is determined at various RPM. The above formula is used to determine the horsepower at the design RPM of the engine.

Trying to remember other correlations. A large piston traveling a long distance will produce high torque at a lower rpm. A small piston with a short stroke will need more rpm to produce the same torque.
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Old 07-26-2016, 08:46 PM   #12
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Trying to answer your question, we often travel with freinds who have a V10 powered airbus 36 ft. Ours is a tradewinds 36 ft. 300hp the two machines are good runnig mates until we hit the mountains and we walk away from the v10. The pacbrake helps on the downhill.
This is great answer and likely what the OP was after. This is a great question and, as a prospective Class A buyer, is very interesting to me. So, putting all the science BS that we've all seen BEAT TO DEATH aside. How about answering the question as more of an "end result" type?

Let's take two 27,000# coaches and toads going up a 5% straight grade at near sea level elevation. Does the 300HP pull away from the gasser? If not, how about the 350HP diesel? How about a V10 with a good tune? How does the new 6spd in the F53 V10 help vs the old 5spd? Inquiring minds are looking for real world experience. We're not looking for science lessons
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Old 07-26-2016, 08:50 PM   #13
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LOL! I can assure you it's nothing personal. You give me far too much credit for having a good memory. I don't remember the other post at all. I think this coincidence took place because you may have made a similar statement about horsepower and torque in that other post. This is also an area of performance that interests me, so I've done a lot of reading and studying so I can fully understand it. Hopefully I can now fully explain it!

As I said earlier, horsepower is horsepower, no matter how it is produced. And it's not magic. HP is a function of both torque and RPM. An engine that produces tremendous amounts of torque at a low RPM, like a diesel, can produce lots of HP at a low RPM. By the same token, an engine that does not produce a lot of torque at low RPM simply has to turn over faster to produce more HP.

Torque is only half of the power equation. Think of it this way. If I have a shaft that is exerting 1,250 lb/ft of torque, but it is not turning, how many HP do I have? The answer? ZERO. The shaft is not turning, therefore no work is being performed, therefore no HP is being developed.

There are small, 4-cylinder engines in cars today that produce only 250 lb/ft of torque, but with turbo charging, nitrous and other performance tweaks they can develop well over 400 HP! And they will give a big, 400 cubic inch V8 a run for their money. But in order to produce that HP they have to spin at very high RPM. An engine that develops 250 lb/ft of torque turning over at 7,500 RPM will produce 357 HP. If I put that little engine in a motor home, and then geared it properly so that at 7,500 RPM in 5th gear I could go only 60-65 mph, that coach would go up a hill just as fast a coach with a 350 HP gas engine or a 350 HP diesel. The ONLY difference is the RPM that the engine is turning and the gearing required to gear down the higher RPM engine to normal road speeds.

I mention gearing because that subject is usually lost in these kinds of discussions, yet it is critically important. If I put that little 4-cylinder engine into a motor home with the same Allison transmission and rear end gears as used with an ISL diesel, that little engine would fall flat on its face. It would barely be able to move the coach because the diesel gearing is WAY too tall for that little engine.

However, if I put that little engine in a coach and followed it up with appropriate high-number rear end gear ratio to properly gear down the engine and match the high rpm engine to normal road speeds, it would then work just fine. The engine would make a lot of noise screaming at high RPM and likely wouldn't last very long as it is constantly being pushed to its limits, but while it was still running it would get the coach over the road at normal speeds.

Here are a few numbers to compare:
Cummins ISL: 900 lb/ft of Torque @ 2,100 RPM = 360 HP
Ford V-10: 450 lb/ft of Torque @ 4,200 RPM = 360 HP
Small 4-Cyl: 250 lb/ft of Torque @ 7,500 RPM = 357 HP

Note that the torque goes down, the RPM goes up, but the HORSEPOWER remains the same.

Horsepower is Horsepower, no matter what size or kind of engine is developing it. It's tough thing to get your head around. I hope I've explained it well enough so it's understandable.
I'm well aware that if you "gear it right", but honestly, do you want to have to shift through a dozen gears in your motorhome? I've spent a fair bit of time building motors, from race engines to street performance to just stock rebuilds. I've done a few engine swaps too, taking small, antiquated engines out and dropping newer, larger displacement engines in. I know of what I speak. What you don't seem to be wrapping your head around is the difference between the torque and horsepower. There is a reason why trucks tend to come with high torque motors, rather than high horsepower motors. You need the torque down low to get things going. You're not going down the highway at 60 miles an hour all the time. You need the torque to get the weight moving. If "horsepower were horsepower" as you like to say, then it would be far more economical for Ford and Chevy to simply stick a small block V8 in every truck they make and simply vary the state of tune. They don't do that though. Why? Because it's not as simplistic as you think it is. When you're moving weight, torque matters.
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Old 07-26-2016, 09:09 PM   #14
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Scatterbrain, I completely agree with you! My example of a little 4-cylinder engine was just that...an example. No one in their right mind would put a little engine like that in a motor home. But if they did and geared it right, it would perform as well as any other 350 HP engine...until it blew up. ;-)

The big, low RPM, high torque diesels can run all day at max HP and not break a sweat. That's why they are used in that application.
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