Full Wall Slide and Cargo Carrying Capacity

[Larry and Suzette]

We are planning to go FT soon and have been searching the forums for various information. Our/my current question is what is the impact of a FWS on CCC? Do you loose 1 or 2 hundred pounds or more. I have search and can not find an answer.

Larry

[Mr_D]

Slides are heavy, the total add'l weight is added to the weight of the vehicle and subtracted from the CCC.
How much would depend on the construction, method of moving them and add'l bracing added. That would vary considerably from manufacturer to manufacturer.

[Larry and Suzette]

Mr D, I understand that. What I am looking for is some real world numbers from say a 4 slide vs fws on say an Endeavor, DS ...

Are we talking say a 1000 or 200 pound reduction.

[Sky_Boss]

Keep a real close eye on this. I'm assuming you are referring to MHs but I suppose 5ths also might have this problem. in VERY GENERAL terms we are finding in the Newmar line that 4 slides on a non-tag can present some potential problems on CCC capability for a stock coach. Newmar doesn't publish CCC but I calculate that in a spread sheet by adding the weight of full water, propane and 2 people (154# each) to the unloaded vehicle weight and subtracting that from GVWR.

I mention 4 slides because 2 slides on the same side probably are close to a full slide. If anything, a full slide would probably be heavier.

The calculated CCC The Newmar numbers are before options are added. They do not include any options.

In the years 2003 - 2006 ALL MADP & DSDP 40', non-tag, 4 slide models have a CCC less than 3900# with most around 3500# or less. 3 slide models generally run closer to 5000# or better but there are a couple that are in the lower 4000# range.

Adding a tag axle makes the numbers look real good BUT...

What I haven't seen on any MH weight sticker is the actual loads on the front and rear axles not to mention lack of 4 corner weight. Maybe Newmar does this better on newer models that I can't afford. LOL

So, as to full wall slide vs number of slides...

You really need to investigate the ACTUAL weights of the MH before you buy it. At a bare minimum get those actual weights so you know if you can balance out the weight in your MH with it loaded. Get it weighed with full water and fuel. If the dealer won't do full fuel, I would estimate how much fuel is in the tank, add the weight of the missing fuel to the front axle since that fuel tank is close to it. The idea is to get a firm understanding of how much weight you have available to load in the MH after you buy it. Keep in mind that where it is in relationship to your axles will play big in how it affects things. What good is 5000# of CCC if your rear axle only give you 2000# to play with? Also, MH packed with tile in the front might challenge the front axle weight limits more than you think especially with that 150 gal fuel tank real close to it.

Again, my research in in the Newmar line of products so others might have different "normal" patterns but I always urge folks to get it weighed before they buy it. I have learned this lesson from experience.

[Sky_Boss]

Originally Posted by Larry and Suzette

Mr D, I understand that. What I am looking for is some real world numbers from say a 4 slide vs fws on say an Endeavor, DS ...

Are we talking say a 1000 or 200 pound reduction.

I think you will find it very hard to quantify this in the terms you are asking. The use of a FSW usually seems to have a major change in floor plan compared to any other model with 3 or 4 slides.

The closest comparison I can find is the 2009/10 MADP 4528 (4 slides) vs 4526 (3 slides with a FSW) Both of these unites have 1.5 bath and identical UVW of 38550#.

http://www.newmarcorp.com/uploads/br...20Brochure.pdf

So, in terms of actual weight, it appears to be a wash between 2 slides vx a FSW. I don't know that it holds true for all manufacturers or all FSW configurations.

After that, I think on has to consider the other aspects. a FSW is heavier as a single unit. Does that introduce other maintenance issues? Are they more prone to have leaks? Will the moving parts fail more often? I don't know, I only have questions.

Hope that helps.

[Larry and Suzette]

thanks Sky_boss. I didn't think it would be easy, just hoping to get a good enough estimate.

As we look for our first MH and leave the sticks and bricks do I rule our FSW?

From what I have read on this forum and others is that the FSW works quite well with some folk(s) reporting nothing unusual while other(s) say that at least one manufacturer has roof sag.

I will not be able to buy a latest model so if we select a FSW it will likely be a 2008ish and close to when they were the new thing.

My net from my research, forums, for FT we want a floor plan that we can live with and about 5K CCC. I'll use our real weights rather than the 154# industry standard.

Larry

Arctic Fox 30U

[Larry and Suzette]

Sky_Boss said "... but I always urge folks to get it weighed before they buy it. I have learned this lesson from experience."

Yep that is in my plan before we sign any papers.

Larry

Arctic Fox 30U

[Mr_D]

Originally Posted by Sky_Boss

Keep a real close eye on this. I'm assuming you are referring to MHs but I suppose 5ths also might have this problem. in VERY GENERAL terms we are finding in the Newmar line that 4 slides on a non-tag can present some potential problems on CCC capability for a stock coach. Newmar doesn't publish CCC but I calculate that in a spread sheet by adding the weight of full water, propane and 2 people (154# each) to the unloaded vehicle weight and subtracting that from GVWR.

I mention 4 slides because 2 slides on the same side probably are close to a full slide. If anything, a full slide would probably be heavier.

The calculated CCC The Newmar numbers are before options are added. They do not include any options.

In the years 2003 - 2006 ALL MADP & DSDP 40', non-tag, 4 slide models have a CCC less than 3900# with most around 3500# or less. 3 slide models generally run closer to 5000# or better but there are a couple that are in the lower 4000# range.

Adding a tag axle makes the numbers look real good BUT...

What I haven't seen on any MH weight sticker is the actual loads on the front and rear axles not to mention lack of 4 corner weight. Maybe Newmar does this better on newer models that I can't afford. LOL

So, as to full wall slide vs number of slides...

You really need to investigate the ACTUAL weights of the MH before you buy it. At a bare minimum get those actual weights so you know if you can balance out the weight in your MH with it loaded. Get it weighed with full water and fuel. If the dealer won't do full fuel, I would estimate how much fuel is in the tank, add the weight of the missing fuel to the front axle since that fuel tank is close to it. The idea is to get a firm understanding of how much weight you have available to load in the MH after you buy it. Keep in mind that where it is in relationship to your axles will play big in how it affects things. What good is 5000# of CCC if your rear axle only give you 2000# to play with? Also, MH packed with tile in the front might challenge the front axle weight limits more than you think especially with that 150 gal fuel tank real close to it.

Again, my research in in the Newmar line of products so others might have different "normal" patterns but I always urge folks to get it weighed before they buy it. I have learned this lesson from experience.

When did Newmar quit publishing the CCC numbers? Our 2002 has them posted although they have changed since the new front axle was installed and much higher capacity tires installed. Newmar also issued us a new modified weight sticker when the new axle was installed.

[Sky_Boss]

Originally Posted by Mr_D

When did Newmar quit publishing the CCC numbers? ...

I am referring to the numbers Newmar publishes in its brochures. They provide Unloaded Vehicle Weight (UVW) and Net Carrying Capacity (NCC). NCC is GVWR minus UVW. UVW is based on a standard equipped model with full fuel but doesn't include water, propane or passengers. The CCC on your weight sticker is specific to your MH based on how it came out of the factory. CCC = GVWR minus UVW minus full fuel minus full water minus full propane minus 2 passengers @ 154#.

Other MH makers do not even provide standard weights to start from in their brochures. That is a shame.

[Sky_Boss]

Originally Posted by Larry and Suzette

...My net from my research, forums, for FT we want a floor plan that we can live with and about 5K CCC. I'll use our real weights rather than the 154# industry standard....

In the Newmar line from 2003-2006 (my probable budget limit. LOL), there isn't a 4 slide (probably similar to a FSW with 2 slides on the other side) without a tag axle that has a CCC above 4500#. That opinion is based on standard equipped models so I suspect the real CCCs are easily a few hundred pounds less! 3 slides (1 FSW and 1 other slide?) generally gets you above 5K CCC except for 2003 models but with the same caution to expect a real life unit to be a few hundred less.

Putting this all together tends to push one towards choosing between a tag axle or 3 slides. Of course, having a specific MH weighed might make even a 4 slide MH without a tag workable depending on how well balanced the front and rear axles are.

Anecdotally, my point of reference is that my CCC is 1600#. With full fuel, water and loaded for part time use I only had about 300# available on the rear axle and almost 500# on the front. There is no way we could avoid overloading the rear axle after loading it for full time use.

All that being said, I think that regardless of the total CCC available, as long as at least 1000# was available on both the front and rear axles that would cover most weight and balance needs. If I found one with at least 1500# on the rear and 1000# on the front...I would then think that would be plenty enough to avoid any second guessing unless one was planning to do a lot of heavy mods like large solar panels and extra batteries.

In the final analysis, I can only rely on some guessing about how much more weight we will carry when we go full time. Since we only added about 800# as part timers, I can't imagine adding more than another 1000# of stuff as a full timer. Then again...I still want some cushion incase I figured wrong. LOL

[Mr_D]

Originally Posted by Sky_Boss

I am referring to the numbers Newmar publishes in its brochures. They provide Unloaded Vehicle Weight (UVW) and Net Carrying Capacity (NCC). NCC is GVWR minus UVW. UVW is based on a standard equipped model with full fuel but doesn't include water, propane or passengers. The CCC on your weight sticker is specific to your MH based on how it came out of the factory. CCC = GVWR minus UVW minus full fuel minus full water minus full propane minus 2 passengers @ 154#.

Other MH makers do not even provide standard weights to start from in their brochures. That is a shame.

OK, you're talking about what they publish in their brochures vs what they put in the rigs.
Our 2002 DSDP had a published NCC of 5,300#'s so I wasn't worried about capacity. Turns out I should have been as the delivered CCC was 663#'s and we didn't order the real tile flooring nor washer/dryer combo.
In fact the rig was 50#'s overweight on the front axle if I filled the fuel and propane tanks with nothing of ours nor even us aboard.
To fix it Newmar had Spartan put a 14,600# axle under the rig to replace the 12,000# one it was delivered with. They also installed a new modified weight. Due to the laws they wouldn't even let me stick it on the wall!
While at Spartan they inspected the rig and made the comment that the rear axle was a 20,000# unit and there was no reason for Newmar to derate it to 19,000#'s. Then the tires limited the front load to 13,600#'s so I installed 305/70's on the front so I can fully use the 14,600# front axle rating.

[Sky_Boss]

Originally Posted by Mr_D

...Our 2002 DSDP had a published NCC of 5,300#'s so I wasn't worried about capacity. Turns out I should have been as the delivered CCC was 663#'s and we didn't order the real tile flooring nor washer/dryer combo....

WOW!!! Simply WOW! As a comment to your front axle situation, they dumped that 12,000# axle in 2004. I know that they derate the Spartan 14,600# front axle down to 14,200# and I suspect that is do account for left right balance but my talks with Spartan confirm that as long as the tires support the individual wheel weight, 14,600# is the rating for the entire axle.

That gives me some great info to consider for our next purchase! Consider that based on your initial NCC that once you use the final CCC that your unit with what ever you had added (not counting optimistic weight data) that your stock NCC of 5300# translates to a stock CCC of about 3975#. Now, subtract the delivered CCC of 663# that means you had 3312# of options and/or the NCC was significantly off the mark. What that tells me is that I will need to factor in at the very least 2000# on top of the NCC for typical options that will be on most DSDP/MADP products and maybe as much as 3000# in the process of figuring out what the norms will be that I will run into.

Am I missing something here?

Of course, that makes getting a MH weighed before purchase, especially a used one that may have been modified, is absolutely essential. Thanks for your into Mr_D.

[Larry and Suzette]

So much to consider, thanks to both of you. The brochure search continues.

Larry

Arctic Fox 30U

[Mr_D]

Originally Posted by Sky_Boss

WOW!!! Simply WOW! As a comment to your front axle situation, they dumped that 12,000# axle in 2004. I know that they derate the Spartan 14,600# front axle down to 14,200# and I suspect that is do account for left right balance but my talks with Spartan confirm that as long as the tires support the individual wheel weight, 14,600# is the rating for the entire axle.

That gives me some great info to consider for our next purchase! Consider that based on your initial NCC that once you use the final CCC that your unit with what ever you had added (not counting optimistic weight data) that your stock NCC of 5300# translates to a stock CCC of about 3975#. Now, subtract the delivered CCC of 663# that means you had 3312# of options and/or the NCC was significantly off the mark. What that tells me is that I will need to factor in at the very least 2000# on top of the NCC for typical options that will be on most DSDP/MADP products and maybe as much as 3000# in the process of figuring out what the norms will be that I will run into.

Am I missing something here?

Of course, that makes getting a MH weighed before purchase, especially a used one that may have been modified, is absolutely essential. Thanks for your into Mr_D.

Actually Newmar went to a 13,200# axle in 2003, wonder why the specs still show it as being 12,000#'s? I got the axle info from the regional sales manager after we ordered ours and Spartan confirmed it when I was there. We were told we got the last 2002 Spartan chassis that Newmar had in stock and the 2003 chassis had the 13,200# axle but only 45° wheel cut rather than the 50° the 2002 chassis had. The 14,600# axle has a 55° wheel cut which is nice. According to the spec's in the brochures they didn't start using the 14,600# axle as standard in 2006. Ours is a 4090 and we did get the storage bay refer/freezer and had them remove two walls and a pocket door to the bath. That made an open floorplan (which they offered in the 2003 model). We also got the optional hardwood cabinets and real look vinyl tile which added some weight too. Also special was the U-line ice maker just behind the passenger seat. The dealer told us it would be installed in the kitchen slide under the sink, but it wasn't. That was a surprise and it added to the front axle weight.
Newmar does do four position weights before the units leave the factory. They would not give the owners that info when we were working with them on the front axle loading. Luckily a new tech guy "spilled the beans" and gave them to me over the phone so I had some proof that they knew the front axle was almost at max as it left the factory.
I suspect that Newmar is playing with the ratings so that people don't overload them as much!
BTW: our new front axle has a rating tag on it that shows it's a 14,600# unit and not 14,200#'s. Spartan also had to install a new steering box as the axle needed the box to work the opposite way of the original. Guess they thought turning the wheel right to go left would cause problems!