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Old 01-22-2014, 03:09 PM   #57
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Who really cares why they are in there. Lawyers not lawyers, grounded water lines not grounded, etc. Bottom line is that they can save your life if something should happen whether or not anyone thinks it can. If my coach did not have them in it I would put them in. I would much rather explain to my wife why I spent the money and time putting them in than have a doctor explain to my wife why I was dead after getting electrocuted.
Agreed, mostly. You simply can't argue with the electrical code rule makers that come up with safety rules and regulations. It's all there for a reason and gets scrutinized and reviewed in great detail by many people before it ever gets into a code book. And there's a reason why Class A GFCI devices are required to trip at 5 mA. Just accept the rules, comply with them and know you are protected.

Some of us do however, like to know the technical reasons why some regulations and requirements are in place and also sometimes the answers can help straighten out the non-believers.

Doesn't matter if it's building construction related, automotive or home appliance, the safety regulations and rules are there to protect the health, welfare and safety of the general public.

I wonder too if the OP got any help from this thread.
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Old 01-22-2014, 03:22 PM   #58
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What is a technical NEC code reason? I think the Dr had it right in post 54.
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Old 01-22-2014, 04:14 PM   #59
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And you can fix "stupid" or teach "common sense" either.

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As a matter of fact Richard.. You can.. Here is a web page dedicated to folks who had their stupid fixed.. Though .. Well. It did cost them

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Old 01-22-2014, 04:28 PM   #60
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What is a technical NEC code reason? I think the Dr had it right in post 54.
Reason? If NEC is not followed it opens manufacturer to lawsuits. Article 551.41(C) Ground Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.
Where provided, each 125-volt, single-phase, 15 or 20 ampere recepticle outlet shall have a ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel in the following locations:
(1) adjacent to a bathroom lavatory

(2)Where the recepticles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces and are within 1.8m (6ft) of any lavatory or sink.

Exception No.1: Recepticles installed for appliances in dedicated spaces,such as for dishwashers, disposals,refridgeratores,freezers, and laundry equipment.

Exception No:2 Single recepticles for interior connections of expandable room sections

Exception No:3 De-energized recepticles that are within 1.8m (6 feet) of any sink or lavatory due to the retraction of the expandable room section.

(3) In the area occupied by a toilet, shower, tub or any combination thereof
(4) On the exterior of the vehicle

Exception: recepticles that are located inside of an access panel that is installed on the exterior of the vehicle to supply power for an installed appliance shall not be required to have a ground-fault circuit-interupter protection.

The recepticle outlet shall be permitted in a listed luminaire(light fixture). Arecepticle outlet shall not be installed in a tub or combination tub shower compartment.

This is why electricians are so expensive. We have to follow all code articles or risk losing our license not to mention the legal ramifications. However the "Purpose of the code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electicity." Don't assume you can follow some parts of the code and not others. The NEC is there to protect you even if you think you know better.

This has nothing to do with the OP however, I just wanted to point out what recepticles are protected by a GFCI and where he might find the GFCI that is causing his grief. Remember any downstream recepticle is protected by the GFCI. If you don't find a GFCI call a licensed electrician and have them install one because someone "knew better" and removed it from your motorhome.
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Old 01-22-2014, 04:37 PM   #61
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Do a test......

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Originally Posted by myredracer View Post
So, why does the NEC and CEC require GFI receptacles near kitchen sinks in houses now if water piping is PEX and waste pipe is ABS? They must have a reason if there's no metallic path to ground. Not different than what you find in an RV.
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Not good enough, sorry. Looking for a correct technical answer...
Not so much as the "path to ground" with the plumbing as the fact of millisecond's vs seconds. In a fiberglass tub (no path to ground or sink) the GFCI will trip in millisecond's verses time it will take a 20 amp. breaker to trip, your heart might not take the voltage from the 20 amp. breaker delay, but will most likely not miss a beat in the millisecond's it takes to trip the GFCI when a electrical item is dropped into the tub with you in it.......
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Old 01-22-2014, 08:59 PM   #62
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Afraid I wasn't asking for Code reasons either on the reasons for GFIs in a kitchen. The NEC is quite clear on where they are required. I wanted to see if someone could say how a GFI senses current to ground if a sink only has plastic piping to it. Straightforward question I thought, but seems too complicated for some.
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Old 01-22-2014, 09:22 PM   #63
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If something falls into the sink such as a coffee maker or electric can opener in the kitchen or a hair dryer ect. In the bathroom and you have your hands in the water or in standing water on the counter top you are protected. There is a path to ground through the appliance cord. But mostly the GFCI is for the unusual things you can't think of. Very small currant leakage is lethal.
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Old 01-22-2014, 09:24 PM   #64
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My guess - short answer - it senses it through the water to ground.

Electrical Conductivity, USGS Water Science School

100% PURE water will NOT conduct electricity to ground however you won't find ANY absolutely 100% PURE water without ANY conductive ions used in an RV or a house or pretty much any place except in a completely environmentally pure condition where 100% pure distilled water has been created without ANY contamination.

Another case of common sense.

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Old 01-22-2014, 09:34 PM   #65
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The GFCI basically monitors from the hot to the neutral. If the flow of electricity is not balanced or interrupted, it will trip.
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Old 01-23-2014, 05:07 AM   #66
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So did the guy ever find what he's looking for ? You remember the guy with the problem in the first place ?
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Old 01-23-2014, 10:02 AM   #67
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Well, I did answer him with as how to find as hidden GFCI method.. But he never replied if he tried it. So I'll repost.

In the evening, turn off all lights (you want dim light only) and folding the bedspread so it's on top of the bed look through all the RV, for the little red telltale light, IF the outlets are working (plug in a 3- light tester, if the proper 2 light its workign, USe one of the 3LTs with a GFCI test button) press the GFCI button briefly, if the lights go out you have a GFCI, do another telltale search.

Check all cubbords. Under the bed and in the basement as well..

Both searches.

And do not forget to look at the breaker box. They do make dual purpose breaker/GFCI units.

USUALLY it is the outlet in the bathroom.. But several RV makers like to play "hide and seek".
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Old 01-23-2014, 10:56 AM   #68
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It's fairly commonplace for people to post problems and never return to post the final results or remedy.

I've learned to live with that fact and go on to the next problem.

Unfortunately, it affects the quality of the forum when members or lurkers do the research with a similar problem but never get their question answered.

Oh well......



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Old 01-23-2014, 11:19 AM   #69
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The OP only has the one post.
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Old 01-23-2014, 11:48 AM   #70
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Yup, and it happens to be this thread.

I remember a thread posted awhile back where a person was complaining about the quality of the Entegra coaches.

He made one post and never returned.

Obviously, it was a scam bogus post made solely to raise the dander of many people which it did.

Those are the ones to completely ignore.

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