Go Back   iRV2 Forums > MOTORHOME FORUMS > Class A Motorhome Discussions
Click Here to Login
Join iRV2 Today

Mission Statement: Supporting thoughtful exchange of knowledge, values and experience among RV enthusiasts.
Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on iRV2
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-10-2011, 08:49 PM   #1
Junior Member
 
Winnebago Owners Club
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 20
House Batteries Type: Water or No Water

House batteries choice which is best? The no mainenance type (sealed) or the maintenance type where you have to monitor the water levels and add water when needed. Thanks.
__________________

__________________
hscole is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 RV Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

iRV2.com RV Community - Are you about to start a new improvement on your RV or need some help with some maintenance? Do you need advice on what products to buy? Or maybe you can give others some advice? No matter where you fit in you'll find that iRV2 is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with other RV owners, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create an RV blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 08-10-2011, 08:55 PM   #2
Moderator Emeritus
 
Gary RVRoamer's Avatar


 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Silver Springs, FL. USA
Posts: 18,066
There are sealed batteries that are just the water type without removable caps, and there are special sealed types call Valve Regulated Lead Acid batteries. The most common VRLA battery is an AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) but most gel type batteries are also VRLA. Both AGm and Gel are a superior type of battery - truly no maintenance. Other types are just low maintenance, and they won't have the ong life of a VRLA.

Among the unsealed types, they generrally last well as long as you remember to check the water periodically. With a top quality3-stage charging system, that's probably 2-3 times a year. For less capable charging systems, that may mean every 1-2 months.
__________________

__________________
Gary Brinck
Former owner of 2004 American Tradition
Home is in the Ocala Nat'l Forest near Ocala, FL
Summers in Black Mountain, NC
Gary RVRoamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2011, 06:30 AM   #3
Senior Member
 
H. Miller's Avatar
 
Monaco Owners Club
Texas Boomers Club
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,523
$80. Vs. $300+ for each !
__________________
Hal & Ginny Miller '04 Beaver Santiam PRT40
'04 Saturn Vue - US Gear Brake - Blue Ox tow
4"girls" (3 Irish Setters - 1 Retriever) - RIP Annie
H. Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2011, 08:01 AM   #4
Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 94
batteries

For myself accessibility to batteries along with $$ is what I have looked at. Hard to access = AGM and $$$. EZ to get to the Wet Cell and $$.
__________________
ToledoCharli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2011, 08:28 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,158
Lifeline AGMs

If you have the $$$, get AGMs, especially Lifelines.

They are no fuss, no muss.

AGMs charge faster than their lead-acid counterparts and AGMs DON'T LEAK. After cleaning a battery tray from leaky flood batteries, you'll appreciate this.

AGMs "hard to access"? I don't know where this comes from. Since AGMs are sealed, you can store them on their backs, upside down, etc. Sounds pretty convenient to me.
__________________
2001 Mountain Aire DP 4095
2008 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon
RVSeniorMoments.com
TechWriter is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2011, 09:33 AM   #6
Senior Member
 
Jim28730's Avatar


 
Newmar Owners Club
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Maggie Valley, NC
Posts: 815
Quote:
Originally Posted by TechWriter View Post
If you have the $$$, get AGMs, especially Lifelines.

They are no fuss, no muss.

AGMs charge faster than their lead-acid counterparts and AGMs DON'T LEAK. After cleaning a battery tray from leaky flood batteries, you'll appreciate this.

AGMs "hard to access"? I don't know where this comes from. Since AGMs are sealed, you can store them on their backs, upside down, etc. Sounds pretty convenient to me.
Amen!
__________________
Jim & Sandy
2016 Newmar Ventana 4037
2014 Grand Cherokee Summit
Jim28730 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2011, 09:41 AM   #7
Registered User
 
Winnebago Owners Club
Nor'easters Club
Freightliner Owners Club
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 552
Quote:
Originally Posted by TechWriter
If you have the $$$, get AGMs, especially Lifelines.

They are no fuss, no muss.

AGMs charge faster than their lead-acid counterparts and AGMs DON'T LEAK. After cleaning a battery tray from leaky flood batteries, you'll appreciate this.

AGMs "hard to access"? I don't know where this comes from. Since AGMs are sealed, you can store them on their backs, upside down, etc. Sounds pretty convenient to me.
+1 on the AGMs. Spend the $$$ and forget about them. No muss no fuss. You can turn your battery disconnect switch off and let them sit for two years and they will still be charged when you flip the switch back on! I've got four Lifelines as my house batteries.

If you're broke and want another hobby, stick with wet cells. LOL
__________________
offthewall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2011, 10:45 AM   #8
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 632
re: "Both AGm and Gel are a superior type of battery" -- let's not get carried away ...

The AGM battery is sealed and the nature of its construction makes them quite rugged and able to be mounted 'upside down' and whatnot but that doesn't make them superior as a general thing.

Gel cell batteries aren't used much in RV's because the do better in float service. These should not be mounted in unusual positions, usually.

The problem with sealed batteries is that they are more sensitive to overcharging. With standard wet cells, you just replace the electrolyte. With sealed that is not an option.

Note that a properly maintained wet cell battery will seldom need to have water added.

Another issue that can come up is the self discharge rate. To reduce gassing, sealed batteries use less antimony to strengthen the lead and more calcium. The side effect is that they don't store as well.

There are no magic bullets. If you gain here, you lose there. What is "best" depends upon your interests and needs and values and not on the batteries themselves. Buy your batteries from a reputable retailer who sells a lot to folks that use them like you do and will stand behind what he sells. Make your choice based on specifications, cost, and warranty. Watch out for myths and marketing hype - things that have no clear definition backed by measure.
__________________
BryanL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2011, 11:02 AM   #9
Senior Member
 
wa8yxm's Avatar
 
Damon Owners Club
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 22,792
I will discuss 3 types

Flooded wet cells (the kind you add DISTILLED water to)

Maintenence free (Standard Maintenance free)

AGM

Flooded wet cell, if some water gets boiled off you can replace it, this, seems to me, to be a good thing. However it does mean you need to have access to the batteries, and you will have to do occasional cleaning and such of the batteries and the area surrounding them. The common GC-2 Golf car battery is often this type, And what is more important it is a DEEP CYCLE type.

Maintenance free, A bit more expensive, you can not add water, if it's lost it's lost. However if you have isues with access to the batteries for whatever reason, These may well be your best option. However finding DEEP CYCLE (As opposed to marine/deep cycle which is not the same) is often... A problem.

AGM: AGM is still more expensive but it has the advantage of being oddly mountable,, Where as with "Wet" Maintenance free "This side up" applies. no such sticker on an AGM, you can mount 'em on end, side, upside down, on an angle, whatever.

OPTIMA: Special case of AGM. for any given footprint only abut 2/3 the capacity, NOT a good choice for RV. Regular "AGM" is much better.

AGM's can be had in Starting, DEEP CYCLE, and Marine/Deep Cycle types.

DEEP CYCLE is best for the house no matter what the electrolytic.
__________________
Home is where I park it!
wa8yxm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2011, 01:25 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 632
re: "However finding DEEP CYCLE (As opposed to marine/deep cycle which is not the same) is often... A problem." -- oh, no! not this again. ;-(

For these terms, please help me find an objective and useful definition that actually means something to the typical RV enthusiast and is backed by solid measure. I've been looking for years and all I have found indicates that batteries are more alike than different and these terms serve no purpose as far as battery performance or capability.

i.e. the "problem" is people hyping these terms - or other ideas like brand or voltage superiority that do not have solid, measurable and objective data behind them, IMHO.

The fact is that these terms only indicate the target market and their primary application is in defining a use as pertinent to warranty issues.

No lead acid battery should be 'deep cycled' as a routine matter (deep cycle is defined as being a discharge to 20% SoC before recharging).

I've been through this one many times as some hold the 'deep cycle' and 'rv/marine' labeling myths very dear. One result is that I've gone through the arguments about plate thickness, ruggedness, cycle life, and even the issues of context. Let me know if you want the full monty.

The outcome remains: I am looking for solid data, something someone will put their money on like specifications and warranty. Do keep in mind that the context is the selection of batteries commonly available to the RV community for use in their rigs.

I'm open to anything new, but in the meantime I think it is a significant disservice to the community to strongly promulgate terms and concepts that cannot be substantiated as meaningful to an RV battery buyer.
__________________
BryanL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2011, 02:04 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,158
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanL View Post
The outcome remains: I am looking for solid data, something someone will put their money on like specifications and warranty.

I'm open to anything new, but in the meantime I think it is a significant disservice to the community to strongly promulgate terms and concepts that cannot be substantiated as meaningful to an RV battery buyer.
"Solid data" on what?
__________________
2001 Mountain Aire DP 4095
2008 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon
RVSeniorMoments.com
TechWriter is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2011, 02:18 PM   #12
Senior Member
 
wa8yxm's Avatar
 
Damon Owners Club
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 22,792
2 days ago, as a result of another thread on these forums as I recall, I downloaded a document from Victron Products. I know there are people who think the difference between starting batteries and Deep Cycle is a myth, but this is a company which makes and sells products that use these batteries and works with them.
http://www.victronenergy.com/upload/...8_july2004.pdf

Google found the link for me (As you can see) it is a PDF document. I recommend you read it.. now when I read it I was struck by a certain lack of information on some of the charts, but this may be my fault, not theirs.

In talking about different types of batteries on page: 14,, When comparing starting to "Sprial Cell" (Another name for optima)they are comparing the same size battery.

But when comparing Starting to "Traction" (Deep Cycle) they are not, and that is not made clear in the article.

All battery types (Starting, Marine/Deep cycle and Deep Cycle) other than Optima will have roughly the same amp hour capacity for the same size battery.

There really is an advantage in RV use to Deep Cycle batteries.. Though I do agree, taking any battery to 20% SOC is a bad idea.. Deep Cycles are not so much bothered by say 50% SOC (which is the figure I use) where as starting and Marine/Deep cycle, Well, 50 percent is "Deep" for them. Victron explaines it way better than I can.
__________________
Home is where I park it!
wa8yxm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2011, 02:20 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
BCooke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,523
"No lead acid battery should be 'deep cycled' as a routine matter (deep cycle is defined as being a discharge to 20% SoC before recharging).."

I missed something. Where does the above come from? Deep cycle batteries are designed to do just that store and then give up a majority of their charge and then be recharged.
__________________
2017 F350 Lariat Diesel Dually, White, Hitch Kit.
2013 Dutchman Voltage 3200 Epic II 5th wheel.
BCooke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2011, 04:48 PM   #14
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 632
re: ""Solid data" on what?" - on how I can tell the difference.

What specification or measurable phenomena can I use to tell, say, a "deep cycle" battery from a "marine/RV" one from any other lead acid battery? What could I use to tell, if you handed me a battery with the markings blanked out if that battery was one type rather than another?

I know the definition of "deep cycle" as that is well specified. 'deep cycle battery' on the other hand is not well defined. It is a marketing term to help identify potential customers.

re: "Deep cycle batteries are designed to do just that store and then give up a majority of their charge and then be recharged." -- this is the myth that causes many to spend money chasing what doesn't exist.

Keep in mind that my context is the sort of battery commonly found at retail for someone to use in their RV. That doesn't mean "traction" batteries or other industrial heavyweights or special purpose or custom batteries. The context here is an RVer looking to replace house batteries.

It is also good to keep in mind that batteries are commodity items of mature design. All manufacturers provide a line that shows trade-offs between cost, capacity, and 'ruggedness'. If you look at a manufacturer's line card, you'll see that the variance isn't really significant when compared to the inherent variability in battery measures due to cycle to cycle variations, temperature, use profile, age, and so on.

In lab tests for these RV type batteries, deep cycle life runs between 200 and 800 cycles or so. Compare that to the number of weekends in the typical 5 year life of an RV battery and you'll see that cycle life just isn't an issue.

If you also look at charts of cycle depth versus cycle life, you'll see why there is no such thing as a 'deep cycle battery' for RV use. This is the basis behind the idea that only discharging your batteries to 50% SoC as a routine thing is the cost optimum use point (see smartgauge.com for a good rundown on the analysis).

re: "I recommend you read it." -- the presumption of ignorance is indicative IMHO. Victron makes good stuff oriented at the marine market. They, like many, take advantage of what is commonly called 'teaching fictions' to try to explain things. They also cover a different context that RV's.

The advice for a prospective battery buyer is to buy batteries from a retailer who sells a lot to folks who use them like you do and stands behind what he sells. Look at specifications, warranty, and cost - empirical things that have money behind them - in your battery choice. Then, if you want to spend more money than you need to, it is at least a knowing choice.
__________________

__________________
BryanL is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
batteries, water



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
House Batteries. How Long Before They Are Dead? adlerx Monaco Owner's Forum 9 02-19-2011 07:42 PM
Charging House Batteries itdave Monaco Owner's Forum 7 04-19-2010 11:37 PM
Odor Issue MakinSmoke Excel Owner's Forum 25 02-18-2008 02:33 PM
House Batteries ??? Omurray Winnebago Industries Owner's Forum 7 08-11-2007 02:16 PM
Changing house batteries to golf cart type in Minnie Winnie Darryl Winnebago Industries Owner's Forum 5 02-28-2007 04:46 PM

» Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.