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Old 03-12-2016, 03:36 PM   #15
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I like vacuum bonded because it produces a much more rigid structure. As to delimitation, it is an issue in every coach.

If water gets in and the backing of the vacubond is and sort of wood product, it will swell and separate. If it is not wood but stays in the wall, freeze thaw will cause delimitation.

Ask any fibreglass boat owner. I am surprised more used RV buyers don't use a fibreglass humidity detector when inspecting a coach. It is standard for any boat survey.
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Old 03-12-2016, 03:51 PM   #16
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When I was at the Newmar factory in 2004 I watched them hang their walls, there was NO plywood or other type of wood on the inside of the fiberglass. Just a solid sheet glued to the welded aluminum structure ot 16" studs.
After 13 years our previous Dutch Star showed no signs of any so called "delamination".
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Old 03-12-2016, 05:31 PM   #17
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There is no wood substrate used in the outer skin of at least the higher end Newmar products. The thick exterior fiberglass sheet is glued directly to the wall studs. There is a thin wood/Masonite material used in the construction of the interior walls.

Adhesive failure was an issue for early adapters of lamination technology, but these days I'd bet most lamination failures are related to water intrusion attacking the plywood or Masonite substrate. That's why one of my criteria was no wood in the exterior wall.

While I've not personally heard of an adhesive failure involving a Newmar I'd think simply regluing the fiberglass skin to the aluminum structure would be a much simpler and less expensive repair than having to essentially remove a wall to rebuild or replace it.

I've come to the conclusion that 99% of all RVs will leak, someplace, during their life cycle, I'm just trying to decrease the odds of any permanent or prohibitively expensive damage and repairs.
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Old 03-12-2016, 06:20 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMonroe View Post
There is no wood substrate used in the outer skin of at least the higher end Newmar products...
Isn't the DutchStar a High-End Model line?

So...What about the Essex?
http://www.newmarcorp.com/motor-coac...pecifications/
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And what's is the same (unlabeled) layer depicted in the KingAire's Specs?
King Aire motor coach specs | Newmar

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From our signature photo, please notice our 30' Wellcraft Express. It has a structural fiberglass hull (no substrate). Structural Fiberglass without some substrate is VERY Heavy...OK for a boat - not so good for a RV.

I would submit that Newmar's engineers use this fiberglass/ply lamination "system" to improve strength and decrease weight. That "wall system" is what is hung on the frame...just good engineering.

And, if the caulking of windows, doors, vents and roof are maintained, there's little chance of delam.

Safe travels
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Old 03-12-2016, 09:23 PM   #19
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Didnt mean to ruffle your feathers Loisjop. The two manufacturers were merely for comparison of information I didnt want. I in no way wanted to compare brands hence the last line of my post, "Again just wall design not coach builder." Sorry if it didnt come across the way I meant it. I have sold both Travel Supreme and Entegra and I know how they build their walls. After re-reading my post I see what you mean, Should have said something like coach builder A uses a hung wall and coach builder B uses a vacubonded wall. Anyway, Im just looking for opinions on what wall type folks would rather have on their coach if they had a choice. "Lighten up Lawrence!"
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Old 03-12-2016, 09:33 PM   #20
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So, again, which wall construction method do you folks prefer and why. I dont care about brand right now. That decision will come after I decide which type of wall construction I want. I like a hung wall built with thicker fiberglass because it doesnt show the studs and aluminum like bonded walls do but I like the strength of a vacubonded wall. I just cant stand looking down the side of a coach in the sunlight and seeing all the ripples. When I spend this kind of money Im not going to have ripples. Sure would be nice if they could build a bonded wall that doesnt show the ripples. Im not sure I agree with the insulation bats drooping over time, I would think they fix them in place somehow.
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Old 03-13-2016, 09:09 AM   #21
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Bruce, those illustrations, taken right from the Newmar web site, do make it look like there is a plywood substrate under the fiberglass skin, but they are in error - haven't been updated.

We've done the factory tour, asked questions, and actually watched the outer skin being applied to a rig. At least the upper end of the Newmar line uses no wood substrate (I'm guessing none of the DPs, but I don't know).

That's not the first error in their web content found either. When we were there I pointed out that the A/C units being shown on that same diagram were not what was listed as standard. They were showing 13.5 units vs the 15. A correction was made while we were still there.

I think I'll send a note to our customer service rep and let them know how this error has created some discussion here.
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Old 03-13-2016, 09:19 AM   #22
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So what is the R factor for 2 inches of fiberglass battens vs same thickens for closed cell foam. Just wonderin ?
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Old 03-13-2016, 09:33 AM   #23
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So what is the R factor for 2 inches of fiberglass battens vs same thickens for closed cell foam. Just wonderin ?
That I don't know. I do know there is an additional 5/8ths inch of foam insulation between the inside of the wall studs and the interior paneling. The other advantage of the stud/hung wall construction, according to their informational videos, is the fact that the insulation fills in the center of those open C channel studs vs the closed tube type that will be open in the center of the tube.
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Old 03-13-2016, 09:52 AM   #24
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So what is the R factor for 2 inches of fiberglass battens vs same thickens for closed cell foam. Just wonderin ?
Between ENTEGRA and Tiffin there is no comparison as far as insulation. I've owned both and if you stick your hand in the upper cabinets of a Tiffin it's like an oven. Even to the point of Tiffin owners trying to put reflective insulation against the wall in the cabinets to cut down on heat gain. While I'm sure they all get a little warmer than room temp it's not noticeable in the ENTEGRA.
As far as "ripples" I don't see that the Newmars or Entegras have any more than ones with vaccubond walls.
As far as strength there is no way a vaccubond wall setting on top of the floors with some 3/16 in. screws going up from the bottom holding the wall in place, is going to be as strong as 1/2 carriage bolts going down through the wall, floor, and into the steel frame of the Mh. There are post by Cruzer and others back a few years ago about finding those screws in their driveway that's suppose to be holding the walls in place.
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Old 03-14-2016, 05:45 PM   #25
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When I asked my question, I wanted an unbiased opinion. I was traveling from macon to Daytona last week and stopped in a flying J to get a few hours sleep. There was a Cornerstone parked there being delivered to a dealer from the factory. I have been debating between a Cornerstone and an Essex. I like them both. What surprised me was the Cornerstone walls looked terrible. The paint was marvelous but as far as the walls being smooth, they failed. I think the Essex is a step above the Cornerstone but still cant rule it out for bang for your buck. The wall issue would really bother me so I was wondering what others thought. Yes, both walls are definitely better than a bonded wall but the fiberglass Newmar uses is incredibly thick and imho looks much better.
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