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Old 07-16-2014, 09:48 AM   #15
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hi palehorse, i will not stop trying to answer peoples questions.
i cannot change company policy, and thats where i draw the line. there is an old saying
"i dont sign the checks, i dont ring the bell, but let something go wrong and watch who catches he--."
seems like that sometimes.
ok, heres my thoughts on the reason hwh doesnt let others rebuild the jacks,
this is my personal opinion, not hwh's. not their official position as far as i know.
as a former winnebago dealer, i know something about being sued. when i had nothing to do with the problem.
its all about liability. dometic, and norcold and many other companies also have what seems to be the same policy. you cant repair their circuit boards and other parts either.
i know cylinders are much simpler but the same liability applies.
if i sell you a set of seals, and you rebuild the jacks, who should provide the
warranty?
what if the seals or other parts are damaged when they are installed. this sometimes happens on rebuilds of all types.
do they check the shaft for damage, or the outer cylinder for concentricity. whether it is still round in other words?
there is much more to a repair, than just installing new seals. do they test their work when done? and most importantly what is their warranty? which, in most cases is none.
hwh, as well as other companies, have been sued for work that was done by others,
even without our knowledge, when we have had no say in how the work was done, testing, or even the time the unit sat while waiting for repair.
check california law on this. its a nightmare.
trust me, the better you control the repair process, the lower your liability is.
hwh is a good company, they have a good warranty, because they control how it is administered as much as they can. i have worked for them for 15 years, and do everything i can to make sure that anyones questions are answered. thats why i put my cell number out there. its on all the time, except for my anniversary, and christmas day. and i do answer when it rings. if not leave me a message, and you get a call back that day.
1-602-549-3638. paul maddox
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Old 07-16-2014, 10:59 AM   #16
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Thanks again Paul for trying to help.

My slow jack story....

Had a slow jack. Did research. Concluded I had nothing to lose by trying to fix it myself. I got it apart, yes not easy, maybe some special tools would have helped, but not impossible. Nothing was bent, scored, scratched, corroded, or anything like that. The lip seals (or rod seals, or whatever name you like) just seemed too tight. Found a local hydraulic shop. They could not match the seals. I couldn't either, McMaster Carr, Grainger, Parker, no where, not a standard seal it seems. Sent it to HWH and picked it up in person on a trip. $300 for $5 in seals, not thrilled.

The "only rebuildable by HWH" does seem true, but only with respect to the fact that the seals aren't commercially available. You mention the seals above. Is that all it really is? (Setting aside the experience and knowledge to do it quickly and cleanly.)

You also mention the hoses. I've never like what Winnebago did on my unit. They used hoses that are too long, one hose size for multiple length units. I have a shorter coach, so I get extra hoses. The fittings look like stand -4 AN stuff, is that true? I see the hose is Parker series 58. Just never looked at the fittings closely. A -4 plug worked fine while my jack was out, but that doesn't mean it was right.
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Old 07-16-2014, 07:17 PM   #17
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what jack did they repair. there is either an AP or RAP number on the side of the jack.
just curious. they do check the rod and tube when they repair it. hwh used to purchase their seals, but started making their own after reliability and availability became an issue.
i do not know who they bought them from. i work in the field, and only meet with other employees about three times a year.
as far as the hoses go, they are parker hoses, and use series 58 fittings on the 1/8 inch hose. any local shop can make them up, but they should use parker hose and fittings. the fittings must be swaged.
most shops use rubber hose and crimped fittings. some work, most cant take the pressure. even good hose with crimped fittings eventually leak. ask for a warranty. you'll need it.
many manufacturers use hoses that are longer than needed. it makes it easier to install. if the hose is coiled near a heat source, it makes the cylinders extend faster than they normally should while driving.
there was a woman on here a while back that had a 16 foot hose coiled up right by the exhaust. she needed a 6 foot hose. i found and fixed that.
sorry, i wish i could do more on price, but i have no idea what cost, and markup are on the manufactured part. i only know the dealer cost and retail of new and reman parts.
as i said before,, i dont design or build them. i only fix them. i dont even do field rebuilds on cylinders, they all have to go to the factory. paul
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Old 07-16-2014, 09:55 PM   #18
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It's an AP31653, on my F53 '04 Adventurer. It was built in late (November/December) '03. Happy with the rebuilt jack. As common as the slow retracting problem is, wish there was an easier fix.

Series 58 fittings come in many varieties. I guess the question is, are the HWH ones JIC 37? I suspect they are, but hate to assume.
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Old 07-17-2014, 07:16 AM   #19
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X2 on palehorse89 comment, azpete your a welcome addition to these forums thanks for you help.
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Old 07-17-2014, 08:11 AM   #20
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I can only relate to you about my HWH jacks. I had a problem with a left rear not fully retracting. It would go up pretty easily with a scissor jack. I figured I needed new springs, until I decided to do a thorough cleaning of the ram. I sprayed it down with WD40, and then wiped it down really good. I was stunned by all the gunk that came off on the rag even though the rams looked clean & shiney. I then cleaned them all, ran them up & down, and cleaned again. I was amazed how much faster they worked. I now clean them at least twice a year, and will still get gunk off them. My jacks are now 14yrs. old and work great.
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Old 07-17-2014, 08:20 AM   #21
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thanks to all, im just trying to let everyone know that im not the opposition.
my job is to help the retail customer all i can, whether you are in the usa, or any where else for that matter.
i cant change prices, i cant sell parts, i cant do authorizations for repairs,except on my own work. if i work on your coach, it is my call whether to do goodwill repairs or not. i do have that, but nothing more. i hope everyone understands that im here to help whenever and wherever i can. on rv.net there is a guy named dougrainer who is one of the best at doing the same.
yes they do use the 37 degree fitting. on all their fittings.
parker fittings are available thru grainger stores, but i dont know if the hose is. i also know most portable swagers have mismatched pushers and dies. they are very inaccurate.
every swaged fitting must be checked with a micrometer to be sure its ok.
mine is one of a few that is certified by the hwh factory, and i am only one of two who are allowed to make up hoses on site. i use a micrometer and record every fitting in my log book. im required by hwh to submit that on every repair report.
thats why hwh insist on hoses made at hwh be used.
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Old 07-17-2014, 11:16 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azpete View Post
thanks to all, im just trying to let everyone know that im not the opposition.
my job is to help the retail customer all i can, whether you are in the usa, or any where else for that matter.
i cant change prices, i cant sell parts, i cant do authorizations for repairs,except on my own work. if i work on your coach, it is my call whether to do goodwill repairs or not. i do have that, but nothing more. i hope everyone understands that im here to help whenever and wherever i can. on rv.net there is a guy named dougrainer who is one of the best at doing the same.
yes they do use the 37 degree fitting. on all their fittings.
parker fittings are available thru grainger stores, but i dont know if the hose is. i also know most portable swagers have mismatched pushers and dies. they are very inaccurate.
every swaged fitting must be checked with a micrometer to be sure its ok.
mine is one of a few that is certified by the hwh factory, and i am only one of two who are allowed to make up hoses on site. i use a micrometer and record every fitting in my log book. im required by hwh to submit that on every repair report.
thats why hwh insist on hoses made at hwh be used.
It sounds like you do very good work and I have said earlier in this post that it is usually a good idea to buy oem parts when you can. However there are some sections of your posts I do not necessarily agree with. You mentioned you have to use a micrometer every time you put a house on a fitting. When I worked in a steel mill we made our own hydraulic hoses. The guys that worked in the supply room had a small training course on how to make them and they made them. I never once saw them using a micrometer on any of the fittings. We used rams that made the ones on HWH jacks look like pixie sticks. The furnaces were tilted to pour the molten steel out I do not know how much the furnaces themselves weigh although I suspect it was more than 50 tons. They had to handle 30 tons of molten steel. I never once saw a fitting we had made come apart from not being put together correctly. You mentioned warranty issues. People will sue about anything. Yes if someone had an issue with a jack falling I am sure HWH gets routinely added to the lawsuit. Basically lawyers list anyone and everyone that they can on the suit. I am sure that an attorney would like to have a large company like HWH on the lawsuit than just a small RV repair shop. Yes seals get improperly installed and fail. Usually there are ways to determine that and even if there are not. HWH will take the defense that is what happened and the person filing the lawsuit has the burden of proving that it did not. Basically HWH is in the business of selling Jacks and they have made the business decision that it is in their best interest not to sell jack rebuild kits. There is nothing wrong with that decision but that decision has a lot of variables including profit margin.
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Old 07-17-2014, 06:49 PM   #23
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i agree with you that every swage does not has to be checked,
but with my using a PORTABLE swaging tool, hwh and i believe that it is in my best interest to measure and record every swage, in my log book.
i even mark the hose end A and end B along with the length. i use a clear shrink tube and white tape underneath.
hwh routinely checks the diameter of swages on their factory machine. constant use wears dies out fast.
while i dont dispute some of your claims, i do not figure into those decisions. they are way beyond my pay grade. i refrain from offering an opinion on a lot of things, because of that.
yes people do sue for anything, and we even get into some that have nothing to do with us.
i once drove from prescott az to corpus christi texas to inspect a coach that the attorney claimed had multiple repairs on rooms and jacks.
i found that the coach had rva jacks, and power gear rooms. it had nothing made by hwh. we still had to pay our attorney and my travel expenses until after a year and a half, the mediator said they had to pay our expenses.
we were sued by a man in california because his coach had a fire. the dealer had replaced the battery cable from the battery to our pump. it shorted out, and the coach burned. guess who paid 80,000 dollars. us. because the way the california laws are written, we could expect no less.
so you see why we are careful about what things we repair, and how we do it.
liability is EVERYTHING period. it is the largest cost in any part built by ANY company.
i dont care if you build the best product out there and have a reasonable markup, if the lawyers eat it up, what would you do? this kind of thing is what is wrong with our health system. most of your doctors bill is for liability insurance. every manufacturer is in the same boat.
sorry for the rant. i used to be a rv dealer, and know what its like to be included when you had nothing to do with the problem. ever been sued because a mattress had a bad odor, and it affected his ardor for his wife? we were. he won, and we had to share in the cost with the manufacturer.
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