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Old 08-20-2013, 09:46 PM   #43
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Wow,, I just clicked on this to see what I could learn.. 1 & 1/2 hours ago.. I have been reading "No-Shock Zone" for that long... I even went out and checked my orange extension cord at the plug that I replaced.. This guy puts a lot in plain language.
For myself, I have proven that I can not be killed by my own stupidity, Yet.
But with a Grandson running around the Rv I think its time to take all this seriously.
Thanks to everyone on this.
Don
Remember that small children are much more sensitive to electric shock than adults. So a shock you much just shrug off could easily kill a small child. NEVER accept feeling a shock from anything. Not from your RV, refrigerator, guitar, microphone, drill, circular saw, microwave, electric stove, etc... Well, you get the idea. Modern grounding and GFCI designs should make death by electrocution nearly impossible. But that's only true if the electricians wire everything properly and gear is inspected for proper operation. Sadly, there's a lot of misinformaiton about testing outlets, even for electricians and inspectors. See Failures in Outlet Testing Exposed | Contractor content from Electrical Construction & Maintenance (EC&M) Magazinefor my recent article in EC&M Magazine.
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Old 08-20-2013, 10:47 PM   #44
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Who did the wiring on the outlet for the pool?

Having the house service upgraded to 200 amps doesn't mean that the electrician and inspector will check each and every outlet in the house.

The responsibility lies on the person who installed the pool outlet PLUS they obviously had no clue what they were doing by NOT installing a GFCI.

Dr4Film ----- Richard
Actually you are probably not correct. Most localities have a provision that if you have any electrical work done of any kind then you have to bring the whole house up to the current code. When they bring it up to code they should check every receptacle for grounding and proper wiring. Areas that need a GFI receptacle like kitchens and bathrooms should have those put in.
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:48 AM   #45
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Actually you are probably not correct. Most localities have a provision that if you have any electrical work done of any kind then you have to bring the whole house up to the current code. When they bring it up to code they should check every receptacle for grounding and proper wiring. Areas that need a GFI receptacle like kitchens and bathrooms should have those put in.
If you have an electrician do something simple like install a ceiling fan or replace a light switch, then all other wiring is grandfathered in and he's not required to bring everything up to code. However, anything he does install MUST be to code. So if he installs a new outlet in the bathroom, then it must be a GFCI. But if there's a new 200 amp service panel installed, then an inspection is required. And that inspection is supposed to include the entire house, with everything needing to be compliant with current electrical code. That's why reno work can be so expensive.

That being said, there's a lot of times when an inspection is done with a wink and a nod, and lots of dangerous conditions slip by. But I can't imagine anyone not checking for a GFCI on a swimming pool. That's criminal.... and I mean that in the legal sense of the word. If someone would have died from electrocution in your pool, I suspect that the electrician/inspector responsible for installing/inspecting the 200-amp service panel upgrade could have been sued. And rightly so...
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Old 08-22-2013, 08:15 AM   #46
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If you have an electrician do something simple like install a ceiling fan or replace a light switch, then all other wiring is grandfathered in and he's not required to bring everything up to code. However, anything he does install MUST be to code. So if he installs a new outlet in the bathroom, then it must be a GFCI. But if there's a new 200 amp service panel installed, then an inspection is required. And that inspection is supposed to include the entire house, with everything needing to be compliant with current electrical code. That's why reno work can be so expensive.

That being said, there's a lot of times when an inspection is done with a wink and a nod, and lots of dangerous conditions slip by. But I can't imagine anyone not checking for a GFCI on a swimming pool. That's criminal.... and I mean that in the legal sense of the word. If someone would have died from electrocution in your pool, I suspect that the electrician/inspector responsible for installing/inspecting the 200-amp service panel upgrade could have been sued. And rightly so...
In our downstairs bathroom, we have an outlet located a just above the sink that is not GFCI - just a regular outlet. I'm pretty sure code requires GFCI outlets there (all of our other sinks with outlets nearby have GFCI outlets), yet this obvious violation 'slipped by'.

City inspectors are a joke. I'm convinced that the entire construction industry is heavily corrupt from top to bottom.
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Old 08-22-2013, 09:58 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by lemosley01

In our downstairs bathroom, we have an outlet located a just above the sink that is not GFCI - just a regular outlet. I'm pretty sure code requires GFCI outlets there (all of our other sinks with outlets nearby have GFCI outlets), yet this obvious violation 'slipped by'.

City inspectors are a joke. I'm convinced that the entire construction industry is heavily corrupt from top to bottom.
Often times electricians will wire several outlets on a single circuit with a single GFCI. For instance, my GFCI outlet in my master bath also serves the wet outlet next to my front door, and the branch that powers my outside light pole. In the end it is the responsibility of the property owner and not a government agency to make sure a property is safe. If you are unsure if your bathroom outlet is on a GFCI, go around the house, find all the GFCI outlets and turn them off by pressing TEST now check your outlet.

Be Safe!!

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Old 08-22-2013, 10:03 AM   #48
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Often times electricians will wire several outlets on a single circuit with a single GFCI. For instance, my GFCI outlet in my master bath also serves the wet outlet next to my front door, and the branch that powers my outside light pole. In the end it is the responsibility of the property owner and not a government agency to make sure a property is safe. If you are unsure if your bathroom outlet is on a GFCI, go around the house, find all the GFCI outlets and turn them off by pressing TEST now check your outlet.

Be Safe!!

Mike
Did you know that all GFCI outlets are supposed to be tested MONTHLY?

When's the last time anybody actually tested their GFCI's?
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:56 AM   #49
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Did you know that all GFCI outlets are supposed to be tested MONTHLY?

When's the last time anybody actually tested their GFCI's?
Also, I'm pretty sure it's possible to mis-wire a GFCI so that it will pass a self-test, but not actually trip during an electrocution event. And I know of at least one way a GFCI can be mis-wired so even if it does trip, it won't disconnect the appliance or RV from the hot side of the power line.

I'm not telling you this as a quick way to get rid of somebody, just that you should have a qualified electrician wire in something as important as a GFCI. Yes, finding a "qualified" electrician is the key, since I have lists of electrocution deaths that occurred from mis-wired electrical outlets, but which were installed and inspected by card carrying electricians and inspectors. And it's a very long list....

The key thing to always remember is that your should NEVER feel a shock from anything plugged into an outlet. Not from your RV, refrigerator, guitar, microphone, air compressor, etc.... If you do feel a shock, then something is very wrong with your grounding system, and you should unplug it from power and have it checked immediately.

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Old 08-23-2013, 08:27 AM   #50
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Well, unless my bathroom outlet is wired to the kitchen (possible) I suspect it isn't on any sort of GFCI.

And by qualified electrician you mean 'someone who actually cares about their work, uses attention to detail, and takes pride in their work'.

I think I'd be better of learning how to do it myself...
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Old 08-23-2013, 08:47 AM   #51
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Well, unless my bathroom outlet is wired to the kitchen (possible) I suspect it isn't on any sort of GFCI.

And by qualified electrician you mean 'someone who actually cares about their work, uses attention to detail, and takes pride in their work'.

I think I'd be better of learning how to do it myself...
Checking for a remote GFCI is easy enough. Just get a 3-light tester with a GFCI test switch. Something like this would also include a Non-Contact Voltage Tester for around $20. TESTER

And yes, it's often hard to find good technicians with strong work ethics nowadays. I fight that fight all the time. But they do exist and worth every penny they charge. However, you can certainly do a lot of this yourself as long as you're careful and willing to study the basics. Before you get started on any wiring, please go and read my entire 12-part NoShockZone series at No Shock Zone | RV Travel. Start at article 1 and work your way through since I wrote these articles to be studied in sequence. That should get you started on the right path.

And remember that 120-volts is deadly stuff to play with, so ALWAYS make sure all circuit breakers are off (and marked as off) and test for AC voltage before working on any outlet.
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Old 08-23-2013, 09:09 AM   #52
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Yes GFCIs can have many outlets wired off them and in strange places. The master bath in our stick house is connected to a smaller bath. Easter egg hunt when that popped for the first time. The outside outlet on the MH is wired off one in the galley area.
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Old 08-23-2013, 10:09 AM   #53
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Yes GFCIs can have many outlets wired off them and in strange places. The master bath in our stick house is connected to a smaller bath. Easter egg hunt when that popped for the first time. The outside outlet on the MH is wired off one in the galley area.
And ours is in the garage - but the guest bath is right there by the sink where it seems to belong.
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:43 PM   #54
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Can anyone comment on the safety aspect of having multiple GFCI outlets off one device, versus a device at each location?
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:58 PM   #55
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Can anyone comment on the safety aspect of having multiple GFCI outlets off one device, versus a device at each location?
I believe that a GFCI is just as effective when run to multiple outlets on a branch circuit, but the confusion aspect is much higher since it's hard to know just which outlet tripped the GFCI.

However, if a GFCI would be located in a wet location (outside) it's far safer to use a Circuit Breaker GFCI in the panel box since an integrated GFCI-Outlet doesn't do very well in the rain. In fact, weather and nearby lighting strikes are probably what cause most GFCI failures.

In any event, find and test your GFCI outlets at least once a camping season as part of your spring de-mothballing, if not once a month.
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Old 08-23-2013, 02:54 PM   #56
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If you have an electrician do something simple like install a ceiling fan or replace a light switch, then all other wiring is grandfathered in and he's not required to bring everything up to code. However, anything he does install MUST be to code. So if he installs a new outlet in the bathroom, then it must be a GFCI. But if there's a new 200 amp service panel installed, then an inspection is required. And that inspection is supposed to include the entire house, with everything needing to be compliant with current electrical code. That's why reno work can be so expensive.

That being said, there's a lot of times when an inspection is done with a wink and a nod, and lots of dangerous conditions slip by. But I can't imagine anyone not checking for a GFCI on a swimming pool. That's criminal.... and I mean that in the legal sense of the word. If someone would have died from electrocution in your pool, I suspect that the electrician/inspector responsible for installing/inspecting the 200-amp service panel upgrade could have been sued. And rightly so...
Actually I wont speak for all localities but I know if you are in Van Buren,
Arkansas you would be wrong and I suspect other localities have the same regulations. Let me use your examples and I know because I have had to pay thousands of dollars for this knowledge. Van Buren code says if you replace a ceiling fan and it only has one switch to control the power and lights you have to add another switch and another wire one for light and one for fan. When you do that you have to bring the whole house up to code. If the ceiling fan has two switches but they are 14 gauge wire then you have to replace with 12 gauge and once again bring the whole house up to code. If you have a ceiling fan with two switches and both connect with 12 gauge wire then you can just replace it and go on with your buisness provided you live in the house you are working on otherwise it will be done by an electrician. If you add A new GFCI circuit that will mean bringing the whole house up to code. Along with bringing the electrical up to code you will be adding intelocking fire detectors one in each bedroom and each hallway when one detects fire it sets off all alarms. So just because you are doing minor changes does not exempt you from brining the whole house up to code in Van Buren and like I said earlier I am sure there are other loccations like that.

When you mention criminal I assume you realize for something to be criminal they have to break laws for which a penalty can be brought to bear by the government versus civil liability for which you can be sued.
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