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Old 06-20-2014, 10:25 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by loulong View Post
Gemini362, you need to apologize to George for the misinformation you have been feeding him. Modern inverters DO NOT charge the batteries or anything else.
  • An inverter, inverts DC voltage into AC voltage, PERIOD.
  • A converter (charger) converts AC voltage to DC voltage, PERIOD
The OP obviously has an Inverter/Charger (a unit advertised and sold as sn Inverter/Charger) witch is NOT simply an inverter, or simply a converter. As the name might imply, it is a unit that incorporates both an inverter and a charger. They obviously share some of the same circuitry, but they operate pretty much independently.
The generic usage for inverter/chargers is Inverter. If you want to read some of the thousands of posts about this subject on IRV2 you will find that very seldom does someone use the term inverter/charger. If you will read my post which you so thoughtfully quoted you will notice I said most of the higher end inverters are also complex battery chargers. While I did not say the actual term inverter/charger the description definitely denotes that I was speaking about an inverter and a charger in the same unit. Actually why don't I be more grammatically correct. and say most high end square wave oscillators that have the output connected to a step up transformer and the output of the transformer is connected to some capacitance filtering to give a modified sine wave 115 vac output from 12volt DC batteries is housed in the same unit with a step down transformer with a 115vac input and output of about 12vac is connected to a full wave bridge rectifier which has a 12vdc output connected to some filtering and smoothing circuitry with a regulated output to charge 12 volt batteries. Or I could just use the generic term inverter and not care whether you think I should apologize or not.
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Old 06-20-2014, 10:32 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Lewis View Post
I am sorry for your problem and do not mean to pick. However I think an inverter takes 12v from your house batteries and changes to 120v for your TV, etc. I don't think it "charges anything". The converter takes shore (or gererator) 120v and converts it to 12v to charge the house batteries. You might check the voltage on your batteries and then plug in the shore power and see if it charges the batteries.
Just to make sure we are on the same page with my explanation. I am aware that some coaches have a separate inverter and or a converter. Although I do not agree with the way it was pointed out. I was describing an inverter/charger. For instance I have a xantrex freedom 458 in my coach it is a 2500 watt inverter and I believe the specs call for 100 amp DC regulated charging circuit. These are both housed in the same piece of equipment. Generally when someone is typing in this forum the just call units like mine inverters, although the proper name is inverter/charger. If I have confused you I apologize. If you go to the xantrex website they explain more about their product.
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Old 06-20-2014, 10:47 PM   #17
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[QUOTE=loulong;2103663]If they don't know any better, they probably do, but when a person specifically asks if an inverter charges batteries, to insist that "modern inverters do" is pure BS.

I believe this post is offensive. Your entire series of posts do not help the original poster with his question.
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Old 06-20-2014, 10:49 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loulong View Post
Gemini362, you need to apologize to George for the misinformation you have been feeding him. Modern inverters DO NOT charge the batteries or anything else.
  • An inverter, inverts DC voltage into AC voltage, PERIOD.
  • A converter (charger) converts AC voltage to DC voltage, PERIOD
The OP obviously has an Inverter/Charger (a unit advertised and sold as sn Inverter/Charger) witch is NOT simply an inverter, or simply a converter. As the name might imply, it is a unit that incorporates both an inverter and a charger. They obviously share some of the same circuitry, but they operate pretty much independently.
I should point out that the term converter is misinformation you do not convert anything the actual term is rectifier. AC voltage is rectified to DC. I will be waiting for your apology for putting out misinformation about rectifiers.
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Old 06-21-2014, 12:16 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by gemini5362 View Post
I should point out that the term converter is misinformation you do not convert anything the actual term is rectifier. AC voltage is rectified to DC. I will be waiting for your apology for putting out misinformation about rectifiers.
I'm afraid the terms that I used ARE the accepted industry standard descriptions of the "Inverter" and "converter" functional units in Rvs. The last rudimentary rectifier only based RV converter was the Nagnetek 6300 series (circa 1960s), the majority are now Switch Mode Power Supplies.

If you really want to know if I understand the operation of conversion, rectification and/or inversion, I would be happy to provide a copy of my EE degree from the University of Chicago and proof of my 40 year career as an electronics Engineer with IBM.

I mention the Electronics Engineering career because a good portion of that time was spent designing Switch Mode Power Supplies. It may come as a shock to you to learn that the typical SMPS consists of an input rectifier stage, an inverter stage, a converter stage and a final rectifier/regulator stage. Most, if not all, RV converters are SMPSs, but are still marketed as RV "CONVERTERS". Your forthcoming apology will be accepted.

You didn't even mention the fact that the term INVERTER is even more inaccurate and nebulous than the term converter. The term inverter has nothing to do at all with HOW the unit works, as it obviously involves more than simply "inverting" anything. It's called and Inverter simply because the function is the "INVERSE" of the "Converter", but I couldn't expect you to know that.

That's about as far as I can take you into Electronics 101 in a single post, but it should give you plenty to GOOGLE while you are preparing your apology.
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Old 06-21-2014, 02:34 AM   #20
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The OP probably ran off to another site to get help.
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Old 06-21-2014, 10:01 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loulong View Post
Gemini362, you need to apologize to George for the misinformation you have been feeding him. Modern inverters DO NOT charge the batteries or anything else.
  • An inverter, inverts DC voltage into AC voltage, PERIOD.
  • A converter (charger) converts AC voltage to DC voltage, PERIOD
The OP obviously has an Inverter/Charger (a unit advertised and sold as sn Inverter/Charger) which is NOT simply an inverter, or simply a converter. As the name might imply, it is a unit that incorporates both an inverter and a charger. They obviously share some of the same circuitry, but they operate pretty much independently.
loulong
You are correct.
Inverters DO NOT charge batteries.
A "converter" DOES NOT necessarily charge batteries....(nor does an "inverter/converter" necessarily charge batteries).

However, a "converter" with with the CIRCUITRY to CHARGE BATTERIES", (aka: converter/charger), can, (& will), charge batteries....as can/will an "inverter/converter" with with the circuitry to charge batteries", (aka: an inverter/charger).

BTW, the owner's manual for my Heart Freedom 20 Inverter/Battery Charger states:
[quote]
This unit performs 4 distinct functions:
1. DC to AC power inverting.
2. Automatic transfer switching between inverter power and incoming AC power.
3. Three-stage automatic battery charging plus manual battery equalizing.
4. AC to DC power converting.
[quote/]
Which I assume makes the Freedom 20 "Inverter/Battery Charger" in my coach an: "Inverter/Transfer Switch/Charger/Equalizer/Converter".

Mel
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Old 06-21-2014, 10:04 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loulong View Post
I'm afraid the terms that I used ARE the accepted industry standard descriptions of the "Inverter" and "converter" functional units in Rvs. The last rudimentary rectifier only based RV converter was the Nagnetek 6300 series (circa 1960s), the majority are now Switch Mode Power Supplies.

If you really want to know if I understand the operation of conversion, rectification and/or inversion, I would be happy to provide a copy of my EE degree from the University of Chicago and proof of my 40 year career as an electronics Engineer with IBM.

I mention the Electronics Engineering career because a good portion of that time was spent designing Switch Mode Power Supplies. It may come as a shock to you to learn that the typical SMPS consists of an input rectifier stage, an inverter stage, a converter stage and a final rectifier/regulator stage. Most, if not all, RV converters are SMPSs, but are still marketed as RV "CONVERTERS". Your forthcoming apology will be accepted.

You didn't even mention the fact that the term INVERTER is even more inaccurate and nebulous than the term converter. The term inverter has nothing to do at all with HOW the unit works, as it obviously involves more than simply "inverting" anything. It's called and Inverter simply because the function is the "INVERSE" of the "Converter", but I couldn't expect you to know that.

That's about as far as I can take you into Electronics 101 in a single post, but it should give you plenty to GOOGLE while you are preparing your apology.

Sure you can email me your EE if you like and I will send you a copy of my paperwork when I worked for NASA as a field engineer. Degrees do not really impress me all that much until you get to PHD level. I really have not looked into how they are made and switching power supplies were put into use after I got out of the industry. It has been a while.
AS far as acceptable industry terms of use in case you have not realized it most of the people on here looking for help are not a part of the industry. I am not a part of the RV industry my background has been more of putting things into space or working with the military blowing things up so I have no idea of what the industry standard is. I have done a lot of posts on here as have you and most of the posters use the generic inverter. If you want to impress people with your knowledge of how to build switch mode power supplies that is fine. IF you have to be the word police good for you. I am through with this argument. When you argue with a pompous person it gets to the point where people cannot tell the difference and I am too close to that point already. Have a good day and I look forward to your further posts impressing us with your veritable fountain of knowledge on a rather limited subject of switchable power supplies.
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Old 06-21-2014, 10:05 AM   #23
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[QUOTE=mel s;2104190]loulong
You are correct.
Inverters DO NOT charge batteries.
A "converter" DOES NOT necessarily charge batteries....(nor does an "inverter/converter" necessarily charge batteries).

However, a "converter" with with the CIRCUITRY to CHARGE BATTERIES", (aka: converter/charger), can, (& will), charge batteries....as can/will an "inverter/converter" with with the circuitry to charge batteries", (aka: an inverter/charger).

BTW, the owner's manual for my Heart Freedom 20 Inverter/Battery Charger states:
Quote:
This unit performs 4 distinct functions:
1. DC to AC power inverting.
2. Automatic transfer switching between inverter power and incoming AC power.
3. Three-stage automatic battery charging plus manual battery equalizing.
4. AC to DC power converting.
[quote/]
Which I assume makes the Freedom 20 "Inverter/Battery Charger" in my coach an: "Inverter/Transfer Switch/Charger/Equalizer/Converter".

Mel
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LOL
I remember the good old days when my body did not hurt all the time and I had better things to do than engage in semantic arguments.
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Old 06-21-2014, 11:31 AM   #24
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[QUOTE=mel s;2104190]loulong
You are correct.
Inverters DO NOT charge batteries.
A "converter" DOES NOT necessarily charge batteries....(nor does an "inverter/converter" necessarily charge batteries).

However, a "converter" with with the CIRCUITRY to CHARGE BATTERIES", (aka: converter/charger), can, (& will), charge batteries....as can/will an "inverter/converter" with with the circuitry to charge batteries", (aka: an inverter/charger).

BTW, the owner's manual for my Heart Freedom 20 Inverter/Battery Charger states:
Quote:
This unit performs 4 distinct functions:
1. DC to AC power inverting.
2. Automatic transfer switching between inverter power and incoming AC power.
3. Three-stage automatic battery charging plus manual battery equalizing.
4. AC to DC power converting.
[quote/]
Which I assume makes the Freedom 20 "Inverter/Battery Charger" in my coach an: "Inverter/Transfer Switch/Charger/Equalizer/Converter".

Mel
'96 Safari
Mel, I love the extra fluff. At least it's closer to the truth than the comment "modern inverters charge batteries"
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Old 06-21-2014, 11:49 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by gemini5362 View Post
Sure you can email me your EE if you like and I will send you a copy of my paperwork when I worked for NASA as a field engineer. Degrees do not really impress me all that much until you get to PHD level. I really have not looked into how they are made and switching power supplies were put into use after I got out of the industry. It has been a while.
AS far as acceptable industry terms of use in case you have not realized it most of the people on here looking for help are not a part of the industry. I am not a part of the RV industry my background has been more of putting things into space or working with the military blowing things up so I have no idea of what the industry standard is. I have done a lot of posts on here as have you and most of the posters use the generic inverter. If you want to impress people with your knowledge of how to build switch mode power supplies that is fine. IF you have to be the word police good for you. I am through with this argument. When you argue with a pompous person it gets to the point where people cannot tell the difference and I am too close to that point already. Have a good day and I look forward to your further posts impressing us with your veritable fountain of knowledge on a rather limited subject of switchable power supplies.
Gem, I wasn't trying to impress anyone. I was just trying to stress the need for us to use descriptive language that doesn't require the disclaimer "everyone knows what I meant", when responding to someone who obviously doesn't know what was meant. The original question about inverters charging batteries, for example....

Why do we keep insisting that OPs include information on the type of RV, Inverter, converter, etc.. in their help requests, if there is not a distinction necessary to provide meaningful answers?

Using your rationale, you can answer most technical questions on this forum with one answer... "it's you inverter" peace....
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Old 06-21-2014, 12:23 PM   #26
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Ok folks, let's knock off discussing each other and stay on topic. Thanks!
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Old 06-21-2014, 03:19 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by loulong View Post
You didn't even mention the fact that the term INVERTER is even more inaccurate and nebulous than the term converter. The term inverter has nothing to do at all with HOW the unit works, as it obviously involves more than simply "inverting" anything. It's called and Inverter simply because the function is the "INVERSE" of the "Converter", but I couldn't expect you to know that.

That's about as far as I can take you into Electronics 101 in a single post, but it should give you plenty to GOOGLE while you are preparing your apology.

Well.. Since I too sometimes go off on the Why not use the proper term" rant.. I guess I'll play devil's advocate and adopt the other side on yours... (I do agree with you though).

Though I do not have as impressive wall paper as you do I do have a bit of knowledge of electronics in specific and science in general.

That said.. I have no problem with calling a box that takes 120 volts AC in and by whatever means "Convertes" it to 12 volts DC, or something close (13.6 perhaps) a "Converter" I also call them power supplies, depends on who I'm talking to.

True story: There is this long plastic strip with a bulblous end and a more or less pointed end, the big end has a slot, you form it in a circle, put the point through the slot and pull tight. You likely call it a ZIP TIE.. Well,,, When I lived in Detroit and OLSON still was in business,,, I mentioned that a device could be Zip-Tied to the underside of the dash if he liked... He did not know what a Zip-Tie is so I ask him if he knew what a police officer's "Flexi Cuff" was.. he did,, Same thing, only smaller (Actually sometimes it's bigger).

Later explaining Flexi-Cuffs to some Ham radio operators.. Well, Im' sure you guessed it (Big Zip Ties).

As for Inverters, that's what is painted on the box by the manufacturer,,, Even if they are combo units like my PROSINE.

UPS or IPS (UN/intrupptable Power Supply) would be a better name because that is what it acts like.. One heck of a 2,000 watt UPS with a long run time .

I sometimes do technical translation for lay folks... last night at a Pot Luck, I was translating a dish.. You see, I understood every word the cook said, but from comments, I was the only one in the room (other than the cook) who did. So I translated.

Simle dish, 4 ingredients.
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Old 06-21-2014, 03:45 PM   #28
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This has been a very interesting thread. In spite of a bit of one upmanship it passed on a lot of information. More than I can possibly remember so later on I might ask some more questions.

Even though the question was thoroughly debated the OP never did come back with the information on his equipment.
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