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Old 12-11-2013, 02:40 PM   #1
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Monaco house battery isolator relay delay- failure

My MONACO HOUSE BATTERY ISOLATOR RELAY DELAY (part 00-00629-120) has apparently failed. I have ordered a new one. Has anyone had such a failure with the symptom that the alternator is overcharging? I replaced the alternator because of its erratic charging (overcharge, undercharge and no charge). I may have wasted about a thousand dollars at Cummins when they replaced the alternator while the problem could have just been this isolator relay..
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Old 12-12-2013, 01:38 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by LJJSRZ View Post
My MONACO HOUSE BATTERY ISOLATOR RELAY DELAY (part 00-00629-120) has apparently failed. I have ordered a new one. Has anyone had such a failure with the symptom that the alternator is overcharging? I replaced the alternator because of its erratic charging (overcharge, undercharge and no charge). I may have wasted about a thousand dollars at Cummins when they replaced the alternator while the problem could have just been this isolator relay..
I would be curious to know if you were running both the diesel engine AND the generator (converter also charging) when you observed this erratic alternator charging behavior.

Most Diesel motorhomes use the Intellitec BIRD 00-00839-000, because it has a generator input, designed to cut it off if the generator and alternator are both running. This opens the isolator/charge relay to prevent confusing the alternator with incoming voltage, as high or higher than it's own output.

If the alternator was failing in any other circumstance, then I doubt you wasted money by replacing it.

If you are sure that it's the 00-00629-120 that is failing, and not the solenoid it's self, I would consider changing to the BIRD, as it would also allow the converter to charge the chassis batteries while on shore power.
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Old 12-13-2013, 10:20 AM   #3
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Thanks loulong The problem may not have been clearly defined. When driving the RV, the alternator overcharges (over 14 v and occasionally the overcharge alarm lite comes on). It is not related to the generator. I check the isolator relay and found that there was voltage to the relay, but there was no output voltage to the relay that ties the house battery to the chassis battery. So hopefully when the isolator relay arrives tomorrow, I will know if that solves the problem. jerry
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Old 12-13-2013, 11:58 AM   #4
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Thanks loulong The problem may not have been clearly defined. When driving the RV, the alternator overcharges (over 14 v and occasionally the overcharge alarm lite comes on). It is not related to the generator. I check the isolator relay and found that there was voltage to the relay, but there was no output voltage to the relay that ties the house battery to the chassis battery. So hopefully when the isolator relay arrives tomorrow, I will know if that solves the problem. jerry
Jerry, I think you have a very good handle on your problem, but there is a slight problem with your terminology.
  • The ISOLATOR RELAY DELAY (part 00-00629-120) is a relay driver, not a relay.
  • The Relay that connects the batteries together IS the isolator relay

It is not unusual for the alternator to charge at 14+ vdc, however, with all batteries properly connected by the IRD and the isolator relay, you may never see that. Good luck with it.
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Old 12-13-2013, 12:27 PM   #5
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I agree with Loulong. The Battery Isolator Solenoid is a device that ties the two battery banks together when in an emergency situation where usually your Chassis battery bank has been depleted too far to start the coach engine.

This is accomplished with a switch on your dash which could be called Aux Start.

Also, the alternator SHOULD be outputting over 14 VDC, usually around 14.3 or so. That level is normal.

Back in your first post, you stated that you had ordered the BIRD which has NOTHING to do with the Battery Isolator Solenoid.

The BIRD controls where the charge should go FIRST, to the House batteries or to the Chassis batteries depending on whether you have the engine running or the generator running or you are hooked to shore power.

See this link for the explanation of the BIRD.

http://bacrallies.com/PDF/PDF%20Manu...D%20Diesel.pdf

Let us know how you make out.

Dr4Film ----- Richard
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Old 12-13-2013, 02:53 PM   #6
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AGAIN, thanks for the input. Here is the latest email I sent to Monaco, plz read and maybe you can help.
"I cked isolator relay input and voltage was there, so I purchased a new relay.
The new relay did not work but I checked the voltage coming to the relay when the engine was running and it varied around 13.2 volts. I now realize that the voltage must be higher than that..so I incorrectly bought a relay that was not needed. The problem is that the input to the IRD/E blue lead which is connected to a yellow lead .. comes from where?? AND why does it only have 13.2 volts and not the same voltage I have on chassis batteries when I am running the engines which is around 14.2 volts. My schematics in the Monaco book do not show this area of wiring. Plz send schematic if possible...Where does yellow wire come from. I imagine it originates in the front left fuse compartment"
I actually put the chassis battery voltage to the "ISOLATOR RELAY DELAY/E" (which was 14.2 volts) and the IRD/E immediately passed positive thru to the solenoid which picked up and the alternator started charging the house batteries. SO as asked in my email to Monaco-were does the voltage feed to the IRD/E come from and why is it only 13.2 volts?? It only appears after I start the engine...Jerry
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Old 12-13-2013, 04:02 PM   #7
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Did you look at the link that I had posted?

It has a wiring diagram at the bottom of the document.

Dr4Film ----- Richard
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Old 12-13-2013, 07:16 PM   #8
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AGAIN, thanks for the input. Here is the latest email I sent to Monaco, plz read and maybe you can help.
"I cked isolator relay input and voltage was there, so I purchased a new relay.
The new relay did not work but I checked the voltage coming to the relay when the engine was running and it varied around 13.2 volts. I now realize that the voltage must be higher than that..so I incorrectly bought a relay that was not needed. The problem is that the input to the IRD/E blue lead which is connected to a yellow lead .. comes from where?? AND why does it only have 13.2 volts and not the same voltage I have on chassis batteries when I am running the engines which is around 14.2 volts. My schematics in the Monaco book do not show this area of wiring. Plz send schematic if possible...Where does yellow wire come from. I imagine it originates in the front left fuse compartment"
I actually put the chassis battery voltage to the "ISOLATOR RELAY DELAY/E" (which was 14.2 volts) and the IRD/E immediately passed positive thru to the solenoid which picked up and the alternator started charging the house batteries. SO as asked in my email to Monaco-were does the voltage feed to the IRD/E come from and why is it only 13.2 volts?? It only appears after I start the engine...Jerry
First, you don't have a BIRD, so ignore the document that DR4Film linked you to. As you correctly stated, you have the IRD. Here's the diagram for it.

You can hook the blue lead anywhere you want to get alternator voltage. The instructions state that it is to be controlled by an ignition switched source (which means the engine is running). It evidently is currently connected to a voltage source that is being degraded/regulated below 13.3volts. Find a 14.X volt source that is ON when the engine runs, and you will be okay.
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Old 12-13-2013, 07:31 PM   #9
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You're absolutely correct. I got the IRD mixed up with the BIRD.

I read his first post too fast and saw Battery Isolator Relay Delay.

Sounds like it's under control and should be up and running shortly.

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Old 12-13-2013, 07:34 PM   #10
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Back in your first post, you stated that you had ordered the BIRD which has NOTHING to do with the Battery Isolator Solenoid.

The BIRD controls where the charge should go FIRST, to the House batteries or to the Chassis batteries depending on whether you have the engine running or the generator running or you are hooked to shore power.
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Richard, your statement that "the BIRD has NOTHING to do with the Battery Isolator Solenoid" is completely WRONG.

The BIRD's sole purpose is to control the solenoid (to connect the batteries together) when EITHER bank is being charged from it's normal source.

The BIRD will close the isolator solenoid when it senses 13.3 volts from the converter (i.e. shore or gen power available) OR, 13.3+ volts from the alternator (engine running).

When NO charging source is available, the BIRD opens the solenoid contacts and the batteries become isolated.

The BIRD knows absolutely nothing about the condition, or charge level, of any of the batteries concerned. It knows ONLY whether there is charge voltage present at one bank or the other (or both).
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Old 12-13-2013, 11:10 PM   #11
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Loulong,

Sorry to respectfully disagree, but not every coach or BIRD system has been wired exactly like you are describing.

My BIRD-2 does NOT control my Battery Isolator Solenoid.

The BIRD is used solely as a detector for when the generator is running and the coach engine is running. In fact if you look closely at the photos you will notice that the BIRD has no wire attached to the Coach BAT terminal.

My coach has a Lambert Battery Maintainer along with a Battery Maintainer Lockout Relay. One end of the Battery Maintainer is for the Chassis Battery and the other end is for the House batteries. The house battery end does go to the house side of the Battery Isolator only because it's the closet area to get to a house battery connection for charging.

Checkout the photos carefully. These are from my Rear Run Bay on the passenger side.

The OP's coach may be the same as yours which is completely different than mine so don't assume that they are ALL like yours.

There are many threads regarding BIRD's. Do some research and read some of them. You will quickly learn that there are many ways the BIRD is used in a lot of coaches and how they are wired.

Dr4Film ----- Richard
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Old 12-14-2013, 09:04 AM   #12
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I have now located the fuse (F33) in the fuse compartment below the driver's seat which is the feed to the ISOLATOR RELAY DELAY but I can not determine which pin connector plug in this compartment that feeds the ISOLATOR RELAY DELAY . anyone have a schematic???? Monaco suggested using a different fuse to connect The ISOLATOR RELAY DELAY input wire. He thought the f33 fuse might have a lower voltage since it also fed the vacuum generator and electric step
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Old 12-14-2013, 12:18 PM   #13
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Loulong,
Sorry to respectfully disagree, but not every coach or BIRD system has been wired exactly like you are describing.
My BIRD-2 does NOT control my Battery Isolator Solenoid.
The BIRD is used solely as a detector for when the generator is running and the coach engine is running. In fact if you look closely at the photos you will notice that the BIRD has no wire attached to the Coach BAT terminal.
My coach has a Lambert Battery Maintainer along with a Battery Maintainer Lockout Relay. One end of the Battery Maintainer is for the Chassis Battery and the other end is for the House batteries. The house battery end does go to the house side of the Battery Isolator only because it's the closet area to get to a house battery connection for charging.
The OP's coach may be the same as yours which is completely different than mine so don't assume that they are ALL like yours.
There are many threads regarding BIRD's. Do some research and read some of them. You will quickly learn that there are many ways the BIRD is used in a lot of coaches and how they are wired.
Dr4Film ----- Richard
Richard,
I didn't mean to jump on your post with boots on. My comments were directed at the BIRD implementation described and depicted in the LINK you provided. It clearly showed the BIRD controlling the Isolator Relay.

Your coach is clearly wired somewhat differently, but I think your understanding of the BIRD function is a little weak.

I don't know why Monaco installed that simple Diode Battery Isolator and called it a "Battery Maintainer", but that's a subject for another discussion. It doesn't make a lot of sense to then go ahead and install the BIRD just to "detect" when the generator is running.

BTW - Your statement that "The BIRD is used solely as a detector for when the generator is running", makes little sense if it doesn't open the charge path, via the Isolator Relay, when the Gen comes ON. That's what that lock-out feature is for (to prevent causing an over voltage alarm at the alternator when both - gen and engine- are running.) Maybe that Diode Isolator (Maintainer) gets confused also.

I'm curious to know where that loose wire (Ring terminal in center of Bay#2 photo) goes to. Could that be the wire attached to the RELAY terminal on the BIRD, back in Bay#1? Could that be the missing control of the Isolator Relay that you say does not exist on your coach? Please clear that up for me....

I'm aware that Monaco didn't deem it necessary to charge the chassis batteries from gen/shore power, so I'm not surprised to see NO connection on the House Battery terminal of the BIRD.

I appreciate your suggestion to read and research material on the application of the BIRD, but I think I'm fairly well versed in the subject. My experience goes well beyond either MY coach, or YOURS.
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Old 12-14-2013, 07:14 PM   #14
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Richard,
I didn't mean to jump on your post with boots on. My comments were directed at the BIRD implementation described and depicted in the LINK you provided. It clearly showed the BIRD controlling the Isolator Relay.

Your coach is clearly wired somewhat differently, but I think your understanding of the BIRD function is a little weak.

I don't know why Monaco installed that simple Diode Battery Isolator and called it a "Battery Maintainer", but that's a subject for another discussion. It doesn't make a lot of sense to then go ahead and install the BIRD just to "detect" when the generator is running.

BTW - Your statement that "The BIRD is used solely as a detector for when the generator is running", makes little sense if it doesn't open the charge path, via the Isolator Relay, when the Gen comes ON. That's what that lock-out feature is for (to prevent causing an over voltage alarm at the alternator when both - gen and engine- are running.) Maybe that Diode Isolator (Maintainer) gets confused also.

I'm curious to know where that loose wire (Ring terminal in center of Bay#2 photo) goes to. Could that be the wire attached to the RELAY terminal on the BIRD, back in Bay#1? Could that be the missing control of the Isolator Relay that you say does not exist on your coach? Please clear that up for me....

I'm aware that Monaco didn't deem it necessary to charge the chassis batteries from gen/shore power, so I'm not surprised to see NO connection on the House Battery terminal of the BIRD.

I appreciate your suggestion to read and research material on the application of the BIRD, but I think I'm fairly well versed in the subject. My experience goes well beyond either MY coach, or YOURS.
Loulong,

You are partially correct in stating my understanding is a little weak but that's because these BIRDS or IRDS that are used or sometimes not used in a variety of different ways in the coaches today. Mine is just one of many. It also happens when you haven't refreshed your memory on how it's all put together.

I will explain how my charging system works.

With engine running, the alternator sends 13.8 - 14.3 volts to the Chassis Battery to keep it fully charged. If there is about 12.6 VDC or more on the Chassis battery the BIRD will close the Isolator Relay so the alternator can maintain the charge on the House Batteries too.

With Shore Power or Generator Power, the on-board Inverter/Charger supplies about 13.5 VDC to the House batteries and then the Lambert Battery Maintainer supplies power to the Chassis battery to keep that full providing that the House Batteries are at or above about 12.6 VDC.

Now if I have the engine running AND the generator running which is common when it's very hot outside the Lambert Battery Maintainer Lockout Relay prevents the Chassis battery from being charged by the Lambert Battery Maintainer while the engine is running. The Alternator has priority for charging the Chassis battery.

The PURPLE wire that you had asked about was used to operate the Salesman Switch Relay/Solenoid. That solenoid has been bypassed for over 9 years now so I removed the control wire from the solenoid and set it aside. The bypass was accomplished by placing the two large gauge wires onto one terminal on either side of the solenoid.

So with all of that said, yes, I had misspoke previously but it was likely from trying to recall exactly how my charging system works. I had to go out and refresh my memory by looking at the Rear Run Bay and diagrams again instead of going by the photos.

My apologies.

Dr4Film ----- Richard
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