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Old 01-30-2016, 06:51 AM   #43
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That's helpful for sure however it doesn't protect against high and low voltage.

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Originally Posted by mojoracing View Post
Here is a link to what fleetwood installed at the factory. It also has ems.
http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/c...zEnRoClgvw_wcB
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Old 01-30-2016, 07:08 AM   #44
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When I first brought my coach home had it plugged into what turn out to be an ungrounded 15 amp outlet. Got a nice tingle off any exterior metal. Made installing a proper RV power point a bit higher on the priority list of things to do. Easy enough to check a camp site power pedestal and something we should all know how to do.

Regarding lighting, little if anything you can do. There's enough energy in a bolt to jump several thousand feet. If you coach gets hit or even a close strike no amount of insulation, bonding, grounding and such is going to be 100% effective. Just too much energy too fast. Best you can hope is your EMS becomes a fast acting one time use fuse but that still takes time, be it milliseconds, to melt.
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Old 01-30-2016, 07:12 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojoracing View Post

Here is a link to what fleetwood installed at the factory. It also has ems.
TECHNOLOGY RESEARCH CORP Automatic Transfer Switch with Surge Guard-pplmotorhomes.com
Yup, based on your description, that's the unit that I had figured your coach has which does NOT have EMS protection from the following:

Open Ground
Low or High Voltage
Low or High Hertz
Open Neutral
Reverse Polarity
3580 Joules of Surge Protection

Your Surge Guard will NOT sever power to the coach when you have poor power conditions. Hence the reason why you experienced a tingle/shock with the errant shore power condition.

That would not have happened with the Progressive Industries EMS units.

If it were me I would install either a portable PI-EMS unit at the shore power pedestal or install a hardwired EMS unit inside your coach prior to the transfer switch to get FULL power protection.

Up to you, your coach, your decision. If you have doubts do a search on iRV2.com regarding the differences between TRC Surge Guard products and Progressive Industries products. Then you can make an informed decision.

Dr4Film ----- Richard
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Old 01-30-2016, 07:14 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Clifftall View Post
That's helpful for sure however it doesn't protect against high and low voltage.
it does. Has it built in.
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Old 01-30-2016, 07:22 AM   #47
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First, I state that I know practically nothing about electricity. So, I want to protect me, my wife and my dog as much as possible (& practical) from faulty and/or miss-wired campground pedestals. Here's how I do it:

Before plugging in my motorhome's power cord, I test the campground's pedestal with this, which I had a licensed electrician construct from plans posted by several iRV2 members:

Attachment 117692

If a problem is indicated, I don't plug in and campground management is alerted. After repair to pedestal is made (or I move to another site), I retest. When (& only when) everything tests ok, I plug into campground's pedestal.

To guard my motorhome while plugged into shore power, I have one of these installed:

Attachment 117693

I think these two devices and my procedural routine provides me, my loved ones and my motorhome with practical, affordable and adequate protection from electrical abnormalities, excluding a direct lightening hit. If that were to happen, I expect to sacrifice my Progressive Industries EMS HW50C, which has a lifetime guarantee.

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Jim,

You are a VERY wise man indeed!

I also use a Power/Pedestal Tester FIRST before even pulling into a RV site. No need to spend all of that time and then have to move.

Then my Progressive Industries EMS-HW-50C unit takes over while I am on shore power to protect my coach from harmful power conditions. I never experience any low voltage conditions due to the PowerMaster Voltage Booster that I use in front of the PI-EMS-HW-50C unit.

It has saved me hundreds of times from no ground, open neutral and high voltage conditions throughout our travels.

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Old 01-30-2016, 07:25 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetbriar View Post
When I first brought my coach home had it plugged into what turn out to be an ungrounded 15 amp outlet. Got a nice tingle off any exterior metal. Made installing a proper RV power point a bit higher on the priority list of things to do. Easy enough to check a camp site power pedestal and something we should all know how to do.

Regarding lighting, little if anything you can do. There's enough energy in a bolt to jump several thousand feet. If you coach gets hit or even a close strike no amount of insulation, bonding, grounding and such is going to be 100% effective. Just too much energy too fast. Best you can hope is your EMS becomes a fast acting one time use fuse but that still takes time, be it milliseconds, to melt.
True, if there is a direct strike, there is nothing you can do, but you can protect against an indirect strike. I installed surge protection for years as well as lightning protection for LAN and telephone Circuits. These devices were always attached to a cold water ground or ground rod, but sometimes the strike would come thru the ground connection itself...and that was the end of the equipment. Trying to protect people is a different story.

Lightning strikes can injure humans in several different ways:[3]


Direct strike – the person is part of the flash channel. Enormous quantities of energy pass through the body very quickly and this can result in internal burns and organ damage, explosions of flesh and bone, and a damaged nervous system. Depending on the flash strength and access to medical services, it may be instantaneously fatal or cause permanent injuries and impairments.
Contact injury – the person was touching an object, generally a conductor, that is electrified by the strike.
Side splash – branches form "jumping" from the primary flash channel, electrifying the person.
Blast injuries – being thrown and suffering blunt force trauma from the shock wave (if very close) and possible hearing damage from the thunder.[citation needed]
Indirect
Ground current or "step potential" – Earth surface charges race towards the flash channel during discharge. Due to the high impedance of the ground, the current "chooses" a better conductor, often a person's legs ( rv jacks?), passing through the body. The near instantaneous rate of discharge causes a potential (difference) over distance, which may amount to several thousand volts per linear foot. This phenomenon is responsible for more injuries and deaths than the above three combined. Reports of "Tens of cows killed by a lightning strike..." are classic examples.[citation needed]
EMPs – the discharge process produces an electromagnetic pulse (EMP) which may damage an artificial pacemaker, or otherwise affect normal biological processes.
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Old 01-30-2016, 07:56 AM   #49
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I had a hot skin on my previous 5th wheel, after the transfer switch was replaced by the dealer. I talked to Mike Sokol and purchase a NCVT and it lit up from any part of the RV w/o even touching it. The dealer fixed their mistake but that was the last time I took it back to them for anything and I also installed a HW50C. That tingle can become a zap under wet conditions.
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Old 01-30-2016, 09:31 AM   #50
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This is another task for the famous red meter from HF. ..

They are not the most accurate but they are cheap and handy with a high impedance input perfect for checking current leakage.

After you verify everything and are plugged in there is one last measurement and that is for hot skin but not to pedestal ground but just wet dirt.

Keep a HF meter in with your shore connection stuff along with a long screwdriver or a any long metal rod.

Find a wet spot in the dirt or make one and stick the screwdriver in.

Now set meter to ac volts and measure between ground and your rv.

Sometimes your cord may fail or the safety ground is wired to a distant point or there may be something going on causing energy to be flowing in the dirt...seen it when the neutral fails in a distribution system.

Takes seconds to a minute to do for final piece of mind.

You could make a meter for this to avoid bending over, get a free one and tape it to a stick with a long nail on the end with one lead attached.
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Old 02-04-2016, 05:25 PM   #51
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Silly question but what is happening when you run the generator. The coach is not grounded at all. Is there a risk of shock as you are stepping in/out of the coach.
The generator is somewhat like the bird on the wire theory, it is isolated from ground via the tires much the same as a bird is on one leg of a hot wire....as long as the bird does not come in contact with another wire or ground at the same time.....all is well.

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Old 02-04-2016, 06:43 PM   #52
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Much ado about nothing given the magnitude of this risk alongside some truly risky activities such as driving, eating food, playing golf, and maybe about 10,000 other things with a higher risk of death or injury.
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Old 02-05-2016, 06:43 PM   #53
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Much ado about nothing given the magnitude of this risk alongside some truly risky activities such as driving, eating food, playing golf, and maybe about 10,000 other things with a higher risk of death or injury.
Not exactly. If you've ever experience a hot skin situation, and stepped off into a water puddle because you are camped out in a dieing tropical storm, it becomes serious. Like I said earlier, the tingle becomes a ZAP.

I grew up around electric fences for livestock. I never trusted my grandpa enough to let him talk me into peeing on it, but I did make incidental contact on multiple occasions. When I first felt the tingle of my RV, I didn't think anything about it. More of an anoyance than a concern. Then after the ZAP, I talked to Mike Sokol. I gained a whole new appreciation of what was going on. It can certainly can be lethal, given the right circumstances.
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Old 02-05-2016, 07:22 PM   #54
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Best way to solve the problem is to mandate an earth leakage breaker on every outlet in each campground pedestal.

At least with 120V you have a reasonable chance of a decent zap not being lethal, but rest of the world is 230V which doesn't allow second chances too often.
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Old 02-05-2016, 09:00 PM   #55
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FMCA seems to think this issue should be addressed as well.

https://www.facebook.com/fmcafans/vi...3905915817509/
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Old 02-05-2016, 09:39 PM   #56
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Wet wood will conduct. A person grabbing an energize RV will conduct better. With this said and being an electronic engineer for over 30 years, the wood blocks are not the cause of hot skin. It's caused by improper grounding via shore power or generator and earth's potential. The RV has a higher voltage than earth which causes current flow through a human's body. My .02
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