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Old 12-14-2015, 07:55 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by tomgauger View Post
I almost bought a 2013 Winnebago Tour...but the deal was going to be contingent on a CAT Scale weigh. (Provides front axle, rear+tag weights).
Then I found out that the Tour is already overweight leaving the factory, largely due to the floor plan which puts the refrigerator behind the co-pilot's seat.
I refused to go any further with the deal.
Seriously, I would advise anyone considering such a major purchase to get it weighed as part of the deal.
Some dealers will tell you (as did Liberty) to never fully fill the fuel and water tanks. And keep the grey & black tanks no more than half-full. (dumb response)
tomgauger
IMO that is not a "dumb response" if full tanks will overload the suspension, (or one or more of the tires)....which unfortunately is possible on some RVs.

BTW, it's also unfortunate that it's rare to find a RV dealer who is honest and reliable.... (which means many RVs are often unwittingly overloaded by unsuspecting/uninformed buyers).

Mel
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Old 12-14-2015, 08:05 AM   #44
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IMO that is not a "dumb response" if full tanks will overload the suspension, (or one or more of the tires)....which unfortunately is possible on some RVs.
I agree that it is not "dumb" from the perspective that the dealer really can't do much nor offer anything useful. However; from a manufacturer perspective, it is about as smart as saying that the driver seat must remain unoccupied while traveling due to weight limitations.

IMHO, building a coach with features that cannot be used (fully used) is not the best engineering nor marketing plan.
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Old 12-14-2015, 08:11 AM   #45
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I should add...

In the world of aviation, we live with this weight issue every day. Center of Gravity (CG) and max weight is critical and most aircraft are not designed to load everything (seats, baggage compartments, fuel tanks) to capacity and still be capable of safe flight. Pilots are trained to load the aircraft appropriately (and within the limits). If you are full of passengers, then probably NOT full of fuel. Full of fuel? Then probably not full of passengers/baggage, etc. However; this concept is completely foreign to the typical automotive operator. Because of that, I said what I said above - not a great plan by the manufacturer.

Edit: Fix my typos.
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Old 12-14-2015, 09:44 AM   #46
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I should add...

In the world of aviation, we live with this weight issue every day. Center of Gravity (CG) and max weight is critical and most aircraft are not designed to load everything (seats, baggage compartments, fuel tanks) to capacity and still be capable of safe flight. Pilots are trained to load the aircraft appropriately (and within the limits). If you are full of passengers, then probably NOT full of fuel. Full of fuel? Then probably not full of passengers/baggage, etc. However; this concept is completely foreign to the typical automotive operator. Because of that, I said what I said above - not a great plan by the manufacturer.

Edit: Fix my typos.
How true that is. Back when I was flying, I rented a six passenger Lance for a fishing trip to Canada. I owned a four place Cherokee and knew by heart how to load it, but I took extra time with the Lance doing the weights and balance figures, till I was ok with the load. One of the passengers was upset that I was taking so long to get it right, but after the trip, the others said they would fly anywhere with me and thanked me for taking the time to be safe.

A motorhome owner should not have to go through the same routine. There is no good reason the manufacturers can't build a wide safety margin into these coaches so the average not so well trained owner can use and enjoy them without being on the fine line of overload.
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Old 12-14-2015, 09:58 AM   #47
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Makes sense

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How true that is. Back when I was flying, I rented a six passenger Lance for a fishing trip to Canada. I owned a four place Cherokee and knew by heart how to load it, but I took extra time with the Lance doing the weights and balance figures, till I was ok with the load. One of the passengers was upset that I was taking so long to get it right, but after the trip, the others said they would fly anywhere with me and thanked me for taking the time to be safe.

A motorhome owner should not have to go through the same routine. There is no good reason the manufacturers can't build a wide safety margin into these coaches so the average not so well trained owner can use and enjoy them without being on the fine line of overload.
Just have to says thanks for both posts. Being new to the motorhome world l have learned a lot that just did not make sense. Reading a 2016 manufacturers brochure and assuming your new 2016 RV is representative of what you are reading is a bad assumption. Buying that motorhome and assuming it was made properly is also a bad assumption. Your post make light of common sense. I wonder if the motorhome manufacturers will ever pay attention to common sense?
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Old 12-14-2015, 04:02 PM   #48
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tBTW, it's also unfortunate that it's rare to find a RV dealer who is honest and reliable.... (which means many RVs are often unwittingly overloaded by unsuspecting/uninformed buyers).

Mel
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I also believe it is likely that a good portion of the salespeople believe the information the manufacturers put out. They are there to sell the units and few of them will question the information they are provided. Not many will actually know the axle weights.
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Old 12-14-2015, 05:42 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by JFNM View Post
I should add...

In the world of aviation, we live with this weight issue every day. Center of Gravity (CG) and max weight is critical and most aircraft are not designed to load everything (seats, baggage compartments, fuel tanks) to capacity and still be capable of safe flight. Pilots are trained to load the aircraft appropriately (and within the limits). If you are full of passengers, then probably NOT full of fuel. Full of fuel? Then probably not full of passengers/baggage, etc. However; this concept is completely foreign to the typical automotive operator. Because of that, I said what I said above - not a great plan by the manufacturer.

Edit: Fix my typos.
Having a carrying capacity of 300 lbs is like the 747 leaving with 15 passengers.
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Old 12-14-2015, 06:08 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFNM View Post
I should add...

In the world of aviation, we live with this weight issue every day. Center of Gravity (CG) and max weight is critical and most aircraft are not designed to load everything (seats, baggage compartments, fuel tanks) to capacity and still be capable of safe flight. Pilots are trained to load the aircraft appropriately (and within the limits). If you are full of passengers, then probably NOT full of fuel. Full of fuel? Then probably not full of passengers/baggage, etc. However; this concept is completely foreign to the typical automotive operator. Because of that, I said what I said above - not a great plan by the manufacturer.

Edit: Fix my typos.
Hard to believe though that a heavy aircraft would not be designed to carry full passengers, full fuel and a bag for every passenger.

That is until we get to the operators who add four extra rows of seats. Then the aircraft was designed for 180 lb passengers but most are over 215.
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Old 12-14-2015, 06:52 PM   #51
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One factor that I have not seen stated, but might have been, is that max axle ratings are determined by the government. I wish not to search again but the info I read stated that a tag axle does not damage roadways as badly as the single axle heavy duty vehicles.

Personally, I feel keeping over rated tires on your rig and using reason on what you load is the best solution for what most of us face; overweight rigs. My GVW is 32K if I recall correctly. If I am 5% overweight that is 1600#. Most of us don't consider a 5% overage as being ridiculous or unsafe. We often overload our cars or pickups and think it gives us bragging rights. So, in my, for what it is worth, opinion I think we should be more concerned with our tire ratings than with the axle load. The only time I would be truly concerned with the axles is if I were to do a lot of very bad road traveling at a quick pace. But, for most of us, that will never happen. (I-5 might be the exception. lol)

Happy trails,
Rick Y
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Old 12-14-2015, 07:49 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFNM View Post
I should add...

In the world of aviation, we live with this weight issue every day. Center of Gravity (CG) and max weight is critical and most aircraft are not designed to load everything (seats, baggage compartments, fuel tanks) to capacity and still be capable of safe flight. Pilots are trained to load the aircraft appropriately (and within the limits). If you are full of passengers, then probably NOT full of fuel. Full of fuel? Then probably not full of passengers/baggage, etc. However; this concept is completely foreign to the typical automotive operator. Because of that, I said what I said above - not a great plan by the manufacturer.

Edit: Fix my typos.

JD, I agree with what you say, but as an aviator since 1978, I think Pilots and Flight Engineers are trained to a MUCH higher standard than what the minimum requirement to "pilot" one of these 45 foot behemoth Motor Homes.

I haven't seen a Motor Home Manufacturer that makes weight and balance information available to buyers like Aircraft Manufacturers do! So even for those people who DO work with weight and balance issues in their daily job, the Manufacturers just aren't providing the tools for us to make accurate safe decisions without having to search out a scale every time we add fuel, water, pax, or change out loading . . . .

Given that absence of training, and weight and balance documentation available from the Motor Coach Manufacturer, then IMHO, these Coaches should be designed in such a way as to make it VERY DIFFICULT to overload the coach, or over gross any of the axles.

If it's relatively easy for the uninformed to overload their coach in any way, than I believe the Coach Manufacturers are being negligent in selling those coaches without proper warnings, and weight and balance documentation . . . .
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Old 12-15-2015, 11:24 AM   #53
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I get the feeling from some posters that being overweight does not matter because you will never get pulled over a scale. That simply is not true as Transport Officers (Peace Officer) have the authority to pull anyone over they think is operating in an unsafe manner or with unsafe equipment. Does it happen often - no but it does happen.

Then to think that the Officer is not knowledgeable is not true. The Officers I know are highly trained and are aware of most of the issues on the road. They have seen and heard most if not all of the situations and excuses used on the scale.

We are fortunate at the moment that the political scene is focused on other issues. It could take only an accident or two and some front page news for the political situation to change.
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Old 12-15-2015, 02:05 PM   #54
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I get the feeling from some posters that being overweight does not matter because you will never get pulled over a scale. That simply is not true as Transport Officers (Peace Officer) have the authority to pull anyone over they think is operating in an unsafe manner or with unsafe equipment. Does it happen often - no but it does happen.

Then to think that the Officer is not knowledgeable is not true. The Officers I know are highly trained and are aware of most of the issues on the road. They have seen and heard most if not all of the situations and excuses used on the scale.

We are fortunate at the moment that the political scene is focused on other issues. It could take only an accident or two and some front page news for the political situation to change.
I'm not sure I would classify a motor home with a 51,000# gvw and weighing 42,000# with one axle 500# over it's rating as an unsafe condition. That's assuming the tires are not overloaded. It's probably no more unsafe than a 42' motor home pulling a trailer that exceeds the 65' length limit. The latter will probably attract more attention from a LEO than a slightly overloaded axle.
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Old 12-15-2015, 02:34 PM   #55
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I'm not sure I would classify a motor home with a 51,000# gvw and weighing 42,000# with one axle 500# over it's rating as an unsafe condition. That's assuming the tires are not overloaded. It's probably no more unsafe than a 42' motor home pulling a trailer that exceeds the 65' length limit. The latter will probably attract more attention from a LEO than a slightly overloaded axle.
No argument from me as I am not a Transport Officer. Is overweight unsafe? Is that 500 on a A, C or B? Steering or Drive axle? If you were pulled over a scale what would the Transport Officer do? Would he let you go or make you move stuff around? Something is weird when you are +500 on an axle and have -9000 GVWR.

Now if you were over 500 what would the problem be with 700 or then 900 or maybe a thousand? One fellow who claimed he knew lots and did lots of fabricating posted 21,000 on a 17,000 axle. No harm, no foul. Just like being a little bit pregnant. You are either over or under the limit.

I still go back to the original premise that a MH under normal conditions should not be over 500 on an axle when full of fuel, water, seat-belted passengers, food, several changes of clothing and some discretionary things like golf clubs, etc.

On a forum such as this the experienced users should be counseling new users to stay within specifications. Encouraging new or even experienced users to exceed published guidelines is irresponsible. When do you reach the limits? Nobody really knows, certainly no one on this forum will sign any documentation saying it is OK to exceed the manufacturers specifications.
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Old 12-15-2015, 05:40 PM   #56
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[QUOTE=Something is weird when you are +500 on an axle and have -9000 GVWR. [/QUOTE]

This is a common problem with many tag axle coaches. More recently, the 2016 Dutch Star. My point has been that if I owned one of them, until Newmar can come up with a fix, I would not be concerned about enjoying it if it were 500# over the rating on the steer axle as long as the tires were within their limits. I would not advise driving it if it were 1,000 or more over, although I'm sure the safety factor is greater than that. My coach axles are S=15,600 (actually the axle is rated at 16,000#, but the tires total 15,600#) D=22,000#, T=13,000#. My actual weight is S=14,600, D=19,800, T= 5200. It varies depending on the load, but even with another 1000# of stuff, I can keep the steer at 14,600 with my manual regulator valves on the tag. The GVW is 50,600#, but it only weighs 39,600#. To carry more weight on the tag would increase the steer weight and take weight off the drive. Neither of which I want to do. If Tiffin had used a shorter wheel base that would allow the full use of the tags capacity without overloading the steer, the basement storage would be deminished, which is not a good selling point.
Unfortunately, the manufacturers build for floor plan and maximum basement storage and too little concern about axle loading and balance. That's not going to change until we users stop buying what they give us.
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