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Old 02-11-2017, 06:00 PM   #1
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Newbie. Charging weirdness, insight appreciated!

'97 37' Allegro Bus, Cat/Allison.

I screwed-up and fried the two 2-year-old 12v coach batteries (ran them dry!= ROOKIE).
So, 2 new Trojan 6v in series.
My Ipower 9100 is putting out +/-14vdc, charge wizard is green.
Conditions:
- I'm only getting 13.7v to both the chassis and coach batteries while the engine is running.
- Only 12.4v to all batteries either on shore power or genset.

Given that there's correct output at the converter, I now suspect that "relay" that looks identical to an old ford truck starter solenoid.
I'm going to check it's current, maybe bypass it just to see if that allows the converter's charging current to reach the batteries.

Any insight greatly appreciated!
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Old 02-12-2017, 07:20 AM   #2
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Old 02-13-2017, 08:42 PM   #3
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With 13.7 volts on both your battery sets with the engine running, that's telling you that the alternator is working charging the chassis batteries, and so is that charge solenoid working (that you erroneously think is a problem) which is then also charging the house batteries. That charge solenoid is engaged when the engine is running, or when you depress the red button on the dash.

I assume when you are saying you get 14 volts from the converter, that it an open circuit voltage (not loaded by the batteries), since you give a 12.4 volt reading of the batteries when charging from shore power. You are not getting a charge current from your converter, when you are on shore or gen. Check to see of there are config settings incorrect (if there are configurable settings).

The converter would only charge the house batteries. Unless your coach was made with a separate trickle charger for chassis batteries, or someone installed an amp-l-start, there would be no charging of the chassis batteries.

I'll try to see if I can find a manual for the I9100 if there is a configuration setting or something that is holding the voltage low.
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Old 02-13-2017, 08:56 PM   #4
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http://www.progressivedyn.com/pdfs/9...hoot_guide.pdf



They're saying 10.5 to 14.0 volts at the battery is 'okay', which doesn't make sense unless that is just a temporary voltage while charging.

If you let the coach sit for a day on the converter, what is the house battery voltage fully charged?
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Old 02-14-2017, 08:21 AM   #5
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So modern charging systems are controlled by the engine ECM, and the ECM monitors the temperature of the outside air... and in some cases will put a sensor at or around the chassis battery to prevent overcharging.... what this means is that the ECM will control/limit charging voltage to prevent overcharging.... what you've found is that your converter when your plugged into shore power has overcharged the batteries and allowed them to gas off....

There is no real answer to bring the batteries up to 100% charge when your on the charging system from the chassis.... the ECM has control of this operation and it can't be changed.... One of my pickups tows all the time.. the batteries in the trailer because of the low charging voltage, and the drop from the connections and distance never get much above 80%....

There is a chart... called "state of charge" and its using a static voltage test of the battery, or batteries... this "state of charge" voltage test, will tell you exactly what percentage of charge the batteries have...

I found on ebay, a very simple digital voltmeter... under $10 that I installed next to my control panel... so I'm no longer looking at a bar graph but can see the actually battery voltage when I push the button...
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Old 02-14-2017, 10:02 AM   #6
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I can't help much because I don't know how your charging circuits are laid out, or what parts are controlling it, but two things you posted stand out - the converter (assume it is an Ipower 9100 from your post) is putting out +/- 14v, but only 12.4v are reaching any of the batteries.

Based on this I assume the 12.4v is the residual charge from being charged by the motor and the charging voltage (+/- 14v) is not reaching ANY of the batteries.

The system that cross connects the two 12v systems is probably not the issue since it is working when the alternator is charging.

From a practical perspective if the house batteries are connected to the house 12v system, and the converter is connected to the house 12v system, and the converter is putting out +/- 14v, then you will see the same voltage at the battery terminals. If you don't then the first problem is that the converter is not connected to the house batteries. You can't have two different voltages on the same wire with the exception of the resistance on the wire, which in this case should be in the order of .1 of a volt, no more.
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Old 02-14-2017, 01:04 PM   #7
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Many thanks for the responses!

Worth mentioning that I'm a very experienced automotive mechanic and have built houses from the ground-up, including wiring them meter-back = comfortable in most skilled-labor trades, with a reasonably elevated faculty for physical-world common sense.
Although RV's combined eng/shore/genset/propane systems are new to me, I'm reasonably confident that I'm "teachable" lol.

Thanks for informing that the ford-looking relay is (apparently) functioning correctly, as the chugging-Cat's alternator-current is reaching the coach batteries ( I merely said that component was "suspect", not "guilty").

Also interesting that neither shore nor genset are designed to charge the chassis batteries; I would have thought these had a relay to kick them voltage as necessary.

One of the chassis (starting) batteries is likely going, and it crossed my mind that may place a charging load on the converter that would draw-down the current reading.
Disconnected both chassis-batteries pos terminals = still <12.5vdc at coach batteries.

I'm going to remove the converter and connect it to a disconnected extra battery to see what happens. Presumably, if it's okay it will function identical to a stand-alone battery-charger. If I'm not getting >13vdc, I'll place a hi-amp load on the battery and see if that bumps the converter's output voltage.
If neither of those conditions produce >13vdc AT THE BATTERY, can I conclude that the converter is toast in spite of it reading 13+* without any load attached?
If so, that means that the green-light on the attached "charge-wizard" is useless, no?

*I specified "14volts" as a median reading at the converter's outputs (connected); it was actually floating between 13.4-14.3vdc every half-secondish (an entirely acceptable charging-range). I have a decent digital meter, but an analog would be nice to observe if that variation was spike or curve.

Thanks!
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Old 02-14-2017, 01:39 PM   #8
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Back in 97, many MHs used diode isolators. The alt output went to the center terminal and a cable from each battery went to a side terminal. It is solid state, so no solenoid like newer MHs.

Look for something like this.
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Old 02-14-2017, 01:48 PM   #9
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As far as the solenoid you found, that is probable the house battery cutoff control ( salesmen switch ). If It is OFF, or bad, no power will come from the converter to the battery. Jump the 2 big posts to test.

If it is black, like a old Ford solenoid, it is most likely not the right one. You need a continuous duty solenoid, able to handle the output of the converter.

There may also be a solenoid near the isolator that jumps from one side terminal to the other. That will be the BOOST or AUX start solenoid.

Take some pictures and let us know what you find.
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Old 02-14-2017, 03:39 PM   #10
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Quote:
The converter would only charge the house batteries. Unless your coach was made with a separate trickle charger for chassis batteries, or someone installed an amp-l-start, there would be no charging of the chassis batteries.
Quote:
Also interesting that neither shore nor genset are designed to charge the chassis batteries; I would have thought these had a relay to kick them voltage as necessary.
My coach came from the factory with a 1.5 amp chassis charging trickle charger called a BatterMinder
http://www.batteryminders.com/12-vol...esfulator-1500
This plugs into a 120vac socket on my coach, that is powered when either the shorepower or generator are working.


Some who have no charger, or want to increase charging capacity, have added something like:

AMP-L-START Starting Battery Charger/Maintainer - Overview Page 15amp, or their earlier trickle charger
Ultra TRIK-L-START Starting Battery Charger/Maintainer

These assume you have some other charger keeping your house batteries charged, and steals some of that current to charge up your chassis batteries. Easiest place to install is right at the charge solenoid.
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Old 02-14-2017, 04:09 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiawah View Post
My coach came from the factory with a 1.5 amp chassis charging trickle charger called a BatterMinder
http://www.batteryminders.com/12-vol...esfulator-1500
This plugs into a 120vac socket on my coach, that is powered when either the shorepower or generator are working.


Some who have no charger, or want to increase charging capacity, have added something like:

AMP-L-START Starting Battery Charger/Maintainer - Overview Page 15amp, or their earlier trickle charger
Ultra TRIK-L-START Starting Battery Charger/Maintainer

These assume you have some other charger keeping your house batteries charged, and steals some of that current to charge up your chassis batteries. Easiest place to install is right at the charge solenoid.


Charge percentage
Does anyone know the recommended charge percentage setting on a magnum system for flooded batteries? This one is in a 2006 HR ENDEAVOR. Thanks
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Old 02-14-2017, 06:24 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswj110 View Post
Charge percentage
Does anyone know the recommended charge percentage setting on a magnum system for flooded batteries? This one is in a 2006 HR ENDEAVOR. Thanks
About 13% of your AH capacity of flooded wet cells.
If you have 600 AH, 78 amps. With a 100 amp charger output, 78%.

With AGM batteries @ 600 AH, 100%.
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Old 02-14-2017, 07:13 PM   #13
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So;
The converter is currently humming along, directly connected to the 2 coach 6vdc serials (which were down to 11.9vdc). It is continuously producing .8vdc above the batteries' reading, meaning it IS definitely charging.
The 9155 is rated at 13.4vdc output (55amps); hence, once it reaches that threshold it will be interesting to see if it auto-quits.
It seemed odd to me that it isn't putting out 13.4vdc while in charge mode, just .8 above batteries; normal?

Re the "Ford solenoid", all I meant was that it's shaped&poled like one; I have no idea if they function similarly. If so, then presumably rather than routing power to the starter it routes the alternator current to batteries. Actuated by... what? The ignition switch? What "informs" that switch to allow current from the alternator to batteries?

I'd be glad to post pics. Where's the "img" tab ???
Thanks!
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Old 02-14-2017, 08:26 PM   #14
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Anything, solenoid or isolator, between the batteries is not going to effect the converter charging.

The converter circuit is only connected to the house batteries. It may have a solenoid in it, but just to disconnect the house battery from the house loads. A switch is usually near the door.

Your converter will start at a lower voltage at first and then slowly climb to 14.2 or so and stay there a few hours. At that point, it will drop back to a float voltage of 13.4 volts.
This is if you have a 3 or 4 stage converter.

Follow the converter wires to the fuse panel and then to the battery. Your problem probably lies there.
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