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Old 01-22-2016, 01:41 PM   #1
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No power to ignition 2002 Monaco Knight

2002 Monaco Knight 36PBD
Shop just replaced lift pump due to bad gasket (gasket is no longer available so entire lift pump had to be replaced...thanks Cummins).
Now, they tell me it will not start. I have never had a problem.
They say that the rear fuse panel is bad - known problem...hmmm.
It is part # 100744 St. Clair Technologies, Inc.
It also is stamped Monaco #4 Rear PDC - Assy# 16615338.
I am a bit suspicious, but they say it is the cause.
Any ideas would be appreciated!
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Old 01-22-2016, 02:10 PM   #2
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Does seem odd. Are they replacing the whole thing. Did they test the individual relays, these do just plug in and can go bad, should be able to test individually.
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Old 01-22-2016, 02:30 PM   #3
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I would at least question if the fuel pump wiring could have been miss-handled causing a short to the panel.

Can you see if there are any new connectors or wiring repair near the new pump ?
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Old 01-23-2016, 12:16 PM   #4
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Will the engine not turn over ? seems to me they need to go back over what they just worked on and make sure it is wired correctly, if it ran just fine other than leaking and now it won't !! DUH!!! they had to do something wrong ! chances of that panel going bad are one in a thousand after it was running fine and they worked on and now it won't run at all .
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Old 01-23-2016, 12:41 PM   #5
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It is probably good that they replaced the entire lift pump versus just the gasket. The do go bad and being a 2002 it was most likely on borrowed time.

Mine was leaking a little last year and I had it replaced by Cummins in Coburg Oregon on my way to Alaska. If the lift pump fails completely it will take out the CAPS fuel injector system which is extremely costly to replace.

I really don't believe what they are claiming WRT your rear fuse panel failing.

Did they turn off either or both of the two battery disconnect switches before starting their repair work on the lift pump?

If so then it is possible that your Chassis disconnect switch did not completely re-engage when turned back to ON.

That happen to me in Alaska when the Cummins Tech replaced my Coolant tank and alternator. I had them bypass the switch just to get the engine started and purchased a used Guest Battery disconnect switch later to install.

Dr4Film ----- Richard
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Old 01-23-2016, 01:23 PM   #6
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I removed my post describing Cummins' approach to repairs because it would be of no help to you.

You are at their mercy unless you go start your rig, or you have it towed somewhere where parts changing is not primary repair philosophy.

Sorry that I cannot be more help. Hope you escape with little damage to your wallet.
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Old 01-23-2016, 07:07 PM   #7
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First, thank you all for replying...this is great! Second, I am sorry for just now getting back to this problem as I was distracted by other problems.

Observed symptoms: Key off and out of ignition switch, connect Monaco #4 Rear PDC, connect batteries, Allison panel "N" and ABS light on dash is lit. Attempts to start do nothing, not even a click.

Monaco Tech Support wanted to rule out the ignition switch. I disconnected the ignition switch plug behind the dash. The Allison and ABS lights lit. Monaco then said that it points to the #4 box which could have a bad solder joint, etc.

Jim J - All six relays test good (not just for the click, but for the continuity)
twinboat - I checked their fuel pump wiring. The lift pump has a two wire clip, and it is correctly connected and no evidence of wire-fraud .
swampdog - I agree that this is a very strange coincidence, but...

Dr4Film - the battery disconnects have been operated by service and me multiple times. QUESTION: Is it difficult to test for the incomplete engagement?

Per Monaco, the Monaco #4 Rear PDC was discontinued c.2006 and is no longer available from their parts distributor. The shop continues to look for a replacement, and I will see what I can find as well.

The box has no access, but I may drill out the rivets and look for anything suspicious. If I had a schematic, perhaps I could test more distinctly. I remain a bit skeptical, but I feel I have few options at this point.

A last point, this box seems to control much of the ignition, exhaust brake, and ABS components (based on the markings). When the box is connected, the ASB LT (light?) relay clicks. That seems odd to me. It seems like it should be waiting for a signal from the pilot.

Thoughts and ideas graciously accepted.
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Old 01-23-2016, 07:22 PM   #8
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ABS relay clicking may be correct for starting sequence, mine lights up until engine is started.

If you have the standard rotary disconnect you could take it out and bolt the 2 wires together to eliminate this portion of your system.

I started having problem with my starting, I'd turn the key and everything would go blank. Turn it again and it would start. The disconnect eventually failed, I replaced it with the same thing that came out.

Guest Switch on Off 2102 | eBay
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Old 01-23-2016, 07:24 PM   #9
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Also, you could check with Visone Auto Mart in KY, they are a salvage yard and have an inventory of Monaco products.

Used RV Parts And Accessories | Visone RV Monaco Parts Dealer | rvparts.visonerv.com

Call or send in a request
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Old 01-24-2016, 07:10 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WindsorE View Post

First, thank you all for replying...this is great! Second, I am sorry for just now getting back to this problem as I was distracted by other problems.

Observed symptoms: Key off and out of ignition switch, connect Monaco #4 Rear PDC, connect batteries, Allison panel "N" and ABS light on dash is lit. Attempts to start do nothing, not even a click.

Dr4Film - the battery disconnects have been operated by service and me multiple times. QUESTION: Is it difficult to test for the incomplete engagement?

Thoughts and ideas graciously accepted.
First off your statement above, "Observed Symptoms" does not make any sense to me at all. "Key off and out of ignition switch, attempts to start do nothing not even a click."

My service tech and I rotated the Chassis disconnect switch several times. He even put a DVOM on each side of the switch but got "false" readings. I asked him to make sure that the switch ACTUALLY made a connection. Then I was told to go mind my own business and let the tech troubleshoot the problem. Well after almost 2 hours he finally comes to me stating that HE found the Chassis disconnect switch is BAD. Oh really! Bypass the dang thing and get me outta here.

I then ordered another switch and installed it. Everything is back to normal.

When I put a DVOM continuity check onto the old switch is was not making full contact in the ON position.

To check you simply remove the switch and bolt the two power cables together.

When this happened to me there was absolutely NO power getting to the FRB electrical compartment for ANY Chassis functions. Your wiring may be different, not sure.

Dr4Film ----- Richard
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Old 01-25-2016, 09:04 AM   #11
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Dr4Film,
Yes, doing the re-read, I can see how that may not make a lot of sense.

Observed symptoms: Key off and out of ignition switch, connect Monaco #4 Rear PDC, connect batteries, Allison panel "N" and ABS light on dash is lit. Attempts to start do nothing, not even a click.

In this case, the period was not nearly a strong enough separator. I was trying to convey that the lights on situation was even with the key off and out. Then, key in, attempting to start really does nothing more than make the fuel gauge climb. Monaco tech did ask me about any gauge movement, so I assume they took that into consideration when pronouncing the Monaco #4 board.

Thanks for the tip on the dial-o-matic.
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Old 02-07-2016, 12:01 PM   #12
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Issue resolved: No power to ignition 2002 Monaco Knight

UPDATE: Monaco provided the wiring diagram for the chassis and the Monaco #4 box which has nothing internal except the circuit board connecting the six relays and about a dozen plus fuses. I was able to test each circuit for proper continuity and resistance, and I could not find any problem with the Monaco #4 box. With great skepticism, the shop allowed me to go in and evaluate the connectors coming into the box. There are two connections for 12-volt power. One connection provides 12+ on both leads. The other connector is to provide 12+ on one lead and 12- on the other. Within two minutes, I determined that the second connector had 12+ coming to the 12- lead. I bypassed the second connector, and the coach fired up to the astonishment of everyone in the shop. I was going to leave the 12+/12- issue to the shop but remembered the advisor mentioned the technician disconnected the battery to remove the starter (???). I examined the battery bay and found a wire that looked like the wire going through the bay wall to feed the Monaco #4 box. Indeed, it was the 12- lead connected to the 12+ of the batteries. Another couple of minutes, and the problem was resolved. I did need to replace a blown fuse for the ignition in the front left bay. Wow, they could have really fried the electronics on this coach. The did reimburse me for the 4 hours of labor they had spent diagnosing the no start issue. I should have asked them to reimburse me for the lost time, fuel driving back and forth a few times (3 hours round trip), and my general frustration. I am just glad to have it running and out of their hands.

I do appreciate fellow forum members who provided advice. Moreover, I cannot tell you how appreciative I am that the Monaco techs spent about two hours (combined) talking with me and emailing me the specs on a 14 year old coach. That is amazing customer service IMO!
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Old 02-08-2016, 11:46 AM   #13
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Well Done!

You have proved that the shop "parts changers" are all about replacing parts on your dime until the problem is resolved. Even if the array of parts installed were not needed.

Congratulations on resolving the problem and thanks for posting the result.
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Old 02-09-2016, 11:44 AM   #14
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WindsorE

Good for you, sometimes life is fair.

As to Cummins reimbursing you, GREAT!

I had my radiator replaced at Cummins (long story on another post) and when I got home I found 4 problems with the reinstall with the most serious being the driveshaft out of phase and the thermovalve not working correctly. I fixed everything myself and Cummins didn't volunteer $.01 cent of reimbursement. I ended up having to replace a U-joint because they jammed one of the end caps in and I couldn't get it out without breaking and also had to replace the thermovalve. After I installed the new valve I took the old one apart and found trash in it.
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