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Old 06-03-2016, 07:01 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TQ60 View Post
If you think you may have vacuum leak just get a spray bottle full of water and on cold engine at idle just spray every joint and hose.

If any response or change a leak is there.

No change then likely no leak.
Thanks, but a -fuel trim is the exact opposite of a vacuum leak. + fuel trim means it is adding fuel to compensate for vacuum leak and your squirt bottle thing would work. I must point out that I usually use my propane torch for this.
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Old 06-03-2016, 07:05 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by slemnah View Post
Not really sure why you are worrying about this. It doesn't sound like you have a drivability problem and if the numbers you are quoting are the long term fuel trim numbers then the engine is running as close to stoichiometric (14.7:1) as possible. Short term is probably bouncing around a lot more but still within specs. Barometric pressure should reset each time you start the vehicle so it should be compensating for the altitude and it sounds like it is due to the fact that it feels that there is not enough O2 and is slightly removing fuel. The engine will have slightly less power but not enough that you would notice much.
Steve
exactly, but that is why I was asking if any one had actually tried measuring the fuel trim at different altitudes. I feel that it is with in specs too, but as a lesson, I'd like to see if I can find out what causes the - fuel trim.
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Old 06-03-2016, 07:14 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Waiter21 View Post
Sounds like the ECM is doing exactly what it was designed to do, adjusting trim for minor deviations in the engine, sensors, and components.

If the required long term adjustments become to large, then the ECM will set the trim error codes.

As long as the trim error codes are not being set, there isn't anything wrong, and IMHO - you're wasting your money attempting to get the long term trim to zero.
The ECM won't set an error code until the long term trim gets to +- 25%, which by then is causing all sorts of other problems. Such as over heating, poor power under load, stumbling at take off, high temps in the cats and a bunch of other things. -fuel trim can be caused by leaky fuel injectors too. But, I just installed brand new Bosch fuel injectors and 02 sensors. The Bosch plugs and wire set, ($120) failed with just 11k miles on them, so I am a little wary of the brand now. I'm going to keep a real close eye on my fuel trim as a way to monitor the fuel injectors to see if they are prone to fail early or bad when installed.

And that is why I was looking for other sources of - fuel trim, could it be my brand new $450 injectors????? (parts only)


The good news is that I'm not getting any misfires, with leaky injectors, most times, you get misfires on all cylinders. This is the part I don't remember, is this true?
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Old 06-03-2016, 08:10 AM   #18
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Yes, looking at the long term trim numbers can help point you in the right direction while troubleshooting other problems.

Injector problems are very rare. Lazy or small leakers are almost impossible to detect as the ECM will correct for them (fuel trim)

If you have a failed injector (doesn't open, or stuck open) then this may show up as a misfire.

One of the great things about modern fuel injection and ignition, it makes troubleshooting problems a lot easier, if you know how to interpret what your looking at.

I was fighting a P0171 LEAN code on my Toad, a Saturn Vue. The car ran great except it would throw an occasional 171 code.

The main problem was a very, very small air leak from intake manifold o-rings.

A contributing factor was a brand new MAP sensor that wast providing correct pressure readings. It showed 15.2 psi with engine stopped. I threw in a used OEM sensor, that showed 14.7 psi. The 14.7 is correct for my altitude (sea level) This is minor difference that the ECM would have corrected for had it not also had a small manifold leak.
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