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Old 05-04-2014, 08:08 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Gordon Dewald View Post
Really interesting discussion. Wonder how much of the age specification has to do with selling more tires and avoiding law suits?

Parallel example (sort of). Friend bought a BMW 850. Oil changes were required every 3000 miles. Next year bought a X5 SUV. Difference was the X5 came with oil changes included. The new requirement was now 12,000 miles.

Makes me wonder??
I totally agree and especially with the oil, as there's none made that needs changing every 3K miles. It's in fact sinful, IMO, to be wasting it in that manner and it's certainly bad enough, the way it is with the fuel costs and the escalating price of other petroleum based products.
With tires and upon frequent inspections, they should be good for at least 10yrs these days. This doesn't mean that you can run around, under-inflated, have a blowout and then blame it on it's age or brand name, which includes the Chinese makes as well.
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Old 05-06-2014, 06:29 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Dewald View Post
Really interesting discussion. Wonder how much of the age specification has to do with selling more tires and avoiding law suits?

Parallel example (sort of). Friend bought a BMW 850. Oil changes were required every 3000 miles. Next year bought a X5 SUV. Difference was the X5 came with oil changes included. The new requirement was now 12,000 miles.

Makes me wonder??
nothing sells like fear. Tis why I always ask these 5 & 7 yr suggestors to back their claims with paid tire receipts or relevant statistical data since the first claim for replacement is "safety".
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Old 05-06-2014, 07:22 AM   #87
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If you look up rubber aging the issues include heat, humidity, oxygen, Ultra Violet and other things. When I first started reading about the issue I also started looking at locations. That has led me to think the shorter period comes from the folks who live in the south where they get more heat and sunlight compared to the folks up north with cooler temps and less overall UV. Even the snowbirds get a break because they are not baking at 120 deg in the summer.

I don't have the golden answer but I do think there is something there to pay attention to. Given the reports of the effects of a blowout and the life time of using a coach I would weigh replacements based on age partly based on replacing the coach. If I was planning on keeping it for 15 years I might do the fronts at 7, the rears at 8 and any third axle at 9 as I have seen some places. They will get done in my ownership lifetime so I might as well do them at my convenience with whatever deal I can get and maximize the safety factor. OTOH if I thought we would dump the coach at year 8 I would not bother unless there were other issues. As they say, YMMV. ;-)
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Old 05-06-2014, 07:33 AM   #88
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Always replace by age (6-7 yrs), not mileage! Peace of mind is worth everything!!
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Old 05-06-2014, 11:12 PM   #89
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Probably the 850 is a early 90's car that did not use synthetic oil while the newer BMW's do and change 12,000 or yearly whichever comes first just guessing.
Nope - the 850 was a year older than the X5. Same dealership, same oil, different marketing.
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Old 05-07-2014, 09:07 PM   #90
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Nope - the 850 was a year older than the X5. Same dealership, same oil, different marketing.
Are you sure there were no changes in the engine such as material or clearances? Clearly the engines of the 70's were not as well designed and tested as those of today. 3 year warranty vs 10 today is clear evidence that something other than oil has changed.

Tire life is much more complex and variable that oil life. Fewer variables in the engine other than temperature and maybe engine rpm.
With tires it is speed, load, inflation, ambient temperature, atmospheric Ozone and UV exposure.

Also I am pretty sure that oil doesn't change properties simply from time while I know that the molecular structure of rubber does.
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Old 05-08-2014, 10:34 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Tireman9 View Post
Are you sure there were no changes in the engine such as material or clearances? Clearly the engines of the 70's were not as well designed and tested as those of today. 3 year warranty vs 10 today is clear evidence that something other than oil has changed.

Tire life is much more complex and variable that oil life. Fewer variables in the engine other than temperature and maybe engine rpm.
With tires it is speed, load, inflation, ambient temperature, atmospheric Ozone and UV exposure.

Also I am pretty sure that oil doesn't change properties simply from time while I know that the molecular structure of rubber does.
I have no arguement with the fact that tires age from all kinds of external factors. And I agree tires are way more critical than oil when it comes to safety on the road.

I simply question the blanket statement that tires are done by 7, 10 years because they age because of complex factors. I note testing is done under scenarios based on conditions in Phoenix (NTHSA). The results are used to issue an warning statement for all tire users. I spend very little time in the temps Phoenix encounters, drive regularly, drive at speed limit or less, keep the tires inflated to recomended pressures with nitrogen and inspect for wear routinely. Do my tires age the same as Phoenix?

As pointed out motor oils and engines have changed over the years because of new materials and engineering. Tires it appears have not kept up. Tire wear life has increased due new materials, construction methods and less agressive agregates used in highway pavements. But aging has changed little if at all. Tire manufacturers have built a tire that will wear longer but ages about the same. Interesting.

Footnote - Based on the life cycle of the coach I will replace the tires in the 7 - 8 year range. Life if full of gambles and this is one that makes little sense to take chances on. I work on the principle "It is when it is going to happen not if" and prepare appropriately.
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Old 05-08-2014, 11:02 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Gordon Dewald View Post
I simply question the blanket statement that tires are done by 7, 10 years because they age because of complex factors. I note testing is done under scenarios based on conditions in Phoenix (NTHSA). The results are used to issue an warning statement for all tire users. I spend very little time in the temps Phoenix encounters, drive regularly, drive at speed limit or less, keep the tires inflated to recomended pressures with nitrogen and inspect for wear routinely. Do my tires age the same as Phoenix?
A problem with discussion forums such as these is that even basically accurate information gets passed from person to person and after a while it's like that party game in which what is being repeated bears little resemblance to the original message.

I'm pretty sure that most, if not all, tire manufacturers use words like these when discussing the lifetime of their tires:

Quote:
It is impossible to predict when tires should be replaced based on their calendar age alone. However, the older a tire the greater the chance that it will need to be replaced due to the service-related evolution or other conditions found upon inspection or detected during use.

While most tires will need replacement before they achieve 10 years, it is recommended that any tires in service 10 years or more from the date of manufacture, including spare tires, be replaced with new tires as a simple precaution even if such tires appear serviceable and even if they have not reached the legal wear limit.

For tires that were on an original equipment vehicle (i.e., acquired by the consumer on a new vehicle), follow the vehicle manufacturer’s tire replacement recommendations, when specified (but not to exceed 10 years).
These sentences came out of a Michelin RV tire guide and happen to be the same words as a used in their car tire lifetime discussion. They don't provide a hard and fast rule about when tires should be replaced but, rather, a guideline. An older version of this guide did specify that tires more than 7 years old should be professionally inspected. This seems to have been deleted.

For those that are interested here's the Michelin document: http://www.michelinrvtires.com/miche...e-material.jsp
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Old 05-08-2014, 11:06 AM   #93
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Agree Docj - Sound advice and well said. Thanks
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Old 05-09-2014, 08:48 AM   #94
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I have no arguement with the fact that tires age from all kinds of external factors. And I agree tires are way more critical than oil when it comes to safety on the road.

As pointed out motor oils and engines have changed over the years because of new materials and engineering. Tires it appears have not kept up. Tire wear life has increased due new materials, construction methods and less agressive agregates used in highway pavements. But aging has changed little if at all. Tire manufacturers have built a tire that will wear longer but ages about the same. Interesting.
Rubber aging are a function of basic organic chemistry. Not sure how to change basic reactions to make two chemicals that have always reacted to each other on the molecular level, no longer react.
The other feature of aging or "reaction rate" is that it is not linear. In fact the rate at which rubber "ages", doubles with each increase in temperature of 18F. This is why tires have a shorter life in the South than in the North.

RE tires not "keeping up". I would disagree. In 2006 an article I wrote was published in Tyres International. You can read part one HERE. and part 2 HERE.
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Old 05-09-2014, 09:07 AM   #95
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Rubber aging are a function of basic organic chemistry. Not sure how to change basic reactions to make two chemicals that have always reacted to each other on the molecular level, no longer react.
The other feature of aging or "reaction rate" is that it is not linear. In fact the rate at which rubber "ages", doubles with each increase in temperature of 18F. This is why tires have a shorter life in the South than in the North.

RE tires not "keeping up". I would disagree. In 2006 an article I wrote was published in Tyres International. You can read part one HERE. and part 2 HERE.
We live in Canada and tires that exceed 6-7 years old have sidewalls that look just like new. The aren't baked or weather worn when cared for. Most people up here don't follow the 6-7 year rule for mandatory tire replacement.
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Old 05-11-2014, 02:36 PM   #96
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DogPatch,
Your situation is a great example of the problem facing the tire industry. How do we provide an simple answer (x number of years) when RVs spend significant amount of time in more than one location?
The best an owner can do is to keep the tire as cool as possible for as long as possible.

- Slight over-inflation (above the pressure needed to carry the laod for Motorhomes)
- Wash with the same soap and cloth you wash the body with
- Keep the tire covered with solid white vinyl cover when parked and the tires could be exposed to direct sunlight.
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Old 05-12-2014, 12:05 PM   #97
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I will admit, that having ALL new tires on 'Squeaky' does have a comforting affect.
Sorry for the thread creep but... That is a GREAT name for a motorhome.
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Old 05-12-2014, 01:58 PM   #98
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- Keep the tire covered with solid white vinyl cover when parked and the tires could be exposed to direct sunlight.
Tireman,

First of all, thanks for all your informative comments here, and also for the mounds of useful information in your blogs.

Have a question though... I've always thought that damage to sidewalls from ozone (which is always in the atmosphere) is going to cause sidewall damage more quickly than UV rays. Therefore, unless your motorhome spends a significant amount of its life in direct sunlight (as it might if you were full-timing or even half-timing), it really doesn't matter much if you cover the tires, since you are going to be replacing them in 7 or 8 years anyway. Is this faulty thinking?
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