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Old 12-17-2013, 12:00 AM   #43
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Scott,

Reading your background, I'm am sure you have already checked the U-joints for proper phasing. Someone in the past may have had the drive shaft apart and not put the two sections back together in phase. This would be an easy overlook if the were exactly 90 out of phase.

When in phase, and the drive shaft angle to the transmission matches the driveshaft angle to the differential, with no more than 1/2 difference between the two angles for motorhomes. (Tucks are allowed 1 difference.) Also, the minimum driveshaft angle should be at lease 1, but no more than 3. (Ref: Spicer/Dana)

After checking the phasing and when you have the level back in spec, dig out your protractor and check the angles.
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Old 12-17-2013, 12:19 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Happycarz View Post
Scott,

Reading your background, I'm am sure you have already checked the U-joints for proper phasing. Someone in the past may have had the drive shaft apart and not put the two sections back together in phase. This would be an easy overlook if the were exactly 90 out of phase.

When in phase, and the drive shaft angle to the transmission matches the driveshaft angle to the differential, with no more than 1/2 difference between the two angles for motorhomes. (Tucks are allowed 1 difference.) Also, the minimum driveshaft angle should be at lease 1, but no more than 3. (Ref: Spicer/Dana)

After checking the phasing and when you have the level back in spec, dig out your protractor and check the angles.
For our race cars I took the idea I bit further. Dean and I came up with tool (tools actually) that use a cheapie laser pointer mounted in a spare trans yoke, and another on a fixture on the rearend yoke.

Engine/trans to rearend alignment, how important is it? homemade tool & pics inside - Yellow Bullet Forums

In our drag cars, we use between a 1/2 degree and 1 degree down angle if all the control arms have heim joints. As much as 5 if the car has OE rubber bushings.

This thing looked like it had like 10 or maybe more. I KNOW that can't be right. U Joints are designed to handle that much angle, especially while handling the torque of a turbo diesel. I'll have the angle finder out when I think I've got it close.

Here's the driveshaft as it sits tonight:

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Old 12-17-2013, 09:49 AM   #45
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Grunging? lol That was pretty good. I bet you were expecting some Seattle rock group guys to pop up at any moment.

I get where you are coming from, but just to clarify, what I meant by oscillating was sound was not constant in it's tone. I wish I knew a better way to say it, but it escapes me at the moment.

I would like to believe it isn't the tires, since they are a very nice looking set of Michelins with probably 80% tread left (or 20% wear if you prefer) and no sign of any dry rotting. I'm definitely not ruling out the possibility of it being tires, I'm just hoping that's not it.

I'm not very good at "living with it" when it comes to noises I know shouldn't be there. Probably makes my life harder, but I am who I am.

Grunging ... I like it
My tires are Michelin's also and the noise is the same as you describe.
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Old 12-17-2013, 10:31 AM   #46
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My tires are Michelin's also and the noise is the same as you describe.
Man I sure hate to think that could be it, but I guess it's a possibility. The date code indicated a manufacture date of 12/2009, so the tires are 4 years old.



I'm still betting on driveshaft angle related to how low the rear of the coach is. I set the driveshaft angle in our race cars at -.5 to -1.0 degrees (that's down from the trans to the rearend in the race car).

THIS is excessive angle:


Typically, passenger cars will have down angle built in on the order of 1-3 degrees, but if you drew a line extending the center line of the barrel of the pinion gear, and the center line of the barrel of the trans output shaft, the line would be parallel, with the trans line being slightly higher in relation to the ground than the pinion line. That is done to create SOME motion in the u-joint bearings to keep lube moving and to keep the needle bearings from "digging in" from being loaded in one continuous spot for indefinite periods of time. If the driveshaft has NO angle, eventually the U-Joint wears in the fixed spots where the needle bearings sit stationary, which is not any better than having TOO much driveshaft angle (which creates binding, and wears out the U-Joint prematurely, as well as probably causing the noise I'm hearing).
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Old 12-17-2013, 12:30 PM   #47
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I'm assuming this is the grommet you are referring to?

It's at least similar to mine. There are two on this page https://www.rvchassisparts.com:8443/...is/runApp?id=5
The first and third items. I agree with your assessment via your pic that the D/S angle is way too steep. You may find the rear ride height valve is defective....if so no problem to change when you're on the ramps.

Re; the ramps I made.........made a small mistake ..... mine are out of 3" x 10" (not 12"). Two stacked with ends cut at 45*.....lag bolted together. One for each rear tire. 3/8" lags with head recessed
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Old 12-17-2013, 10:00 PM   #48
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Got the back end up

I was able to adjust the rear ride height valve tonight. The driveshaft is still not straight from the trans yoke to the rearend, but it's dramatically closer.

The good news is, the noise is all but gone. NO vibration at all anymore, and the noise is so faint now you really have to be listening for it to notice.

What little noise remains could very well be a low tire. When I was under it making the adjustment to the valve, I noticed the inside left rear tire was low and I forgot to air it up before taking the test drive. Hopefully that will eliminate the remaining noise.

A nice residual side effect of correcting the rear ride height was the ride QUALITY improved exponentially. Front is also too low, but I didn't adjust it. I'm guessing that after the front ride height is corrected, and all the tire pressures are corrected, this thing should be a Cadillac.
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Old 12-17-2013, 10:02 PM   #49
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Sounds like you 'got your feet wet'
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Old 12-17-2013, 11:36 PM   #50
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ScottRussell

Awesome that you were able to correct it with the height adjustment, several of us were with you on that diagnostics. The good thing was it didn't cost you your first born and I personally await your next learning curve undertaking. I completely enjoyed following this post, thanks.

Hope to meet you at a rally or somewhere else, do you or your friend give tours of your drag car building facility? If you do, once the tour is over do you have to kill us to prevent trade secrets leaking.

Tom and Barb
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Old 12-18-2013, 12:08 AM   #51
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My beer says your U joints are dry rust red and the needles have pounded the cross or at least rivered them. It's easy to check by pulling a joint cap.

I bought my bus from a guy who was meticulous about having it serviced at the local cummins dealer. Always on time and under mileage. When I bought it had just over 17k miles. It had set for a while so when I bought it I took it to the same dealer and had it serviced. Made sense..
Second trip coming back from a track in UT it had a similar load vibration sometimes downhill it would vibrate the mirrors. it seemed be getting worse. It didn't dawn on my until the last 20 miles that sure seems like a drive shaft vibration.

Large bang and I see the drive shaft shooting across lanes taking out a inner tire. Dead in the water.

Short story long, had the drive shaft replaced and warranty denied because it was "dry" and claimed not had been serviced even though I had less than 3k miles since service.
I thought I'd be smart and use the same grease so that warranty would not say that my grease was incompatible with dealer's grease. What I found was that I had to pump, from a Lincoln grease gun, averaging 1 pump per 100 miles. ie on a 500 mile trip it would take 5 solid pumps to purge and it would be black and stink link gear oil.

I could not figure out where that much grease was going. The grease begins with a big V was slinging out leaving a grease film everywhere around and under engine, fine enough to be in the air stream. A film, because I would wipe excess at every service.

On my trip cross country I was greasing every two days and it was taking about 10 pumps per joint every 1000 miles. 10 pumps is a lot of grease from a professional gun.

When I got back I contacted Chevron tech line and they put me onto a industrial grease that was designed not to spin out at high rpm. Since then it only takes not even 3 pumps per 1000 and it doesn't stink.

Summary, if you ain't greasing you ain't going.
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Old 12-18-2013, 07:22 AM   #52
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Your experience with bearing grease is not unlike what I experienced with TT wheel bearing grease. We had 3 TT's. When I got our first TT home in 2010 I decided to remove the china wheel bearings and replace with better quality bearings.

I am also very partial to using synthetic lubricating products. I've used Mobil 1 in all my engines as well as synthetic wheel bearing grease for 35 years. Never had any issues or regrets.

TT's wheel bearing issues are well known. The lazy method recommended and used by most is to pump the axle hub full of grease (similar to what is done in boat trailers) and exchange the old grease for new. The only problem is in order to get the grease to flow through the tiny hole drilled into the axle to get to the inner bearing the grease is designed to be of lower viscosity or thinner. If some guys, not all, are told to give each axle hub 2-3 squirts of grease every so often we all know that if 2-3 squirts are good then 5-6 are better. When they do that they will often times blow out the inner seal and ruin the shoes and drums.

It is my belief, demonstrated by the inordinate number of blown inner seals on TT's, that thinner grease and over-servicing TT bearings is the cause.

I've serviced hundreds maybe thousands of front drum/rotor wheel bearings and could count on one hand or less the number of defective/blown inner hub grease seals. I've replaced many during a 30,000 - 40,000 mile brake/bearing service and that's only because it's always a good idea to replace them at that service interval.

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Old 12-18-2013, 10:12 AM   #53
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ScottRussell

Awesome that you were able to correct it with the height adjustment, several of us were with you on that diagnostics. The good thing was it didn't cost you your first born and I personally await your next learning curve undertaking. I completely enjoyed following this post, thanks.

Hope to meet you at a rally or somewhere else, do you or your friend give tours of your drag car building facility? If you do, once the tour is over do you have to kill us to prevent trade secrets leaking.

Tom and Barb
2000 Bounder 39Z
Tom, I appreciate the kind words, but our "drag car building facility" is a 40x60 metal building on Dean's property. It's just a hobby for both of us. When we were next door neighbors, he only had a carport and I had a garage with a door. After his first wife passed away and he eventually remarried and moved, the car and half shop at his new home was destroyed when a tree fell through it in a tornado (his home wasn't damaged). His (then) wife said if he was going to build something, build what he really wanted, so he did lol. We've been doing all of our projects out there ever since.

No trade secrets to speak of, but I'm sure Dean and I would both love to meet you and Barb (which ironically, was Dean's first wife's name). We aren't doing an RV rallies (yet), but we race all over the area, from Valdosta Georgia to Route 66 Raceway in Joliet, to Beech Bend in Bowling Green and all points in between. I'm sure we can make plans to get together somewhere at some point.

Thanks for your input on this problem BTW. I appreciate it!
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Old 12-18-2013, 10:15 AM   #54
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My beer says your U joints are dry rust red and the needles have pounded the cross or at least rivered them. It's easy to check by pulling a joint cap.

I bought my bus from a guy who was meticulous about having it serviced at the local cummins dealer. Always on time and under mileage. When I bought it had just over 17k miles. It had set for a while so when I bought it I took it to the same dealer and had it serviced. Made sense..
Second trip coming back from a track in UT it had a similar load vibration sometimes downhill it would vibrate the mirrors. it seemed be getting worse. It didn't dawn on my until the last 20 miles that sure seems like a drive shaft vibration.

Large bang and I see the drive shaft shooting across lanes taking out a inner tire. Dead in the water.

Short story long, had the drive shaft replaced and warranty denied because it was "dry" and claimed not had been serviced even though I had less than 3k miles since service.
I thought I'd be smart and use the same grease so that warranty would not say that my grease was incompatible with dealer's grease. What I found was that I had to pump, from a Lincoln grease gun, averaging 1 pump per 100 miles. ie on a 500 mile trip it would take 5 solid pumps to purge and it would be black and stink link gear oil.

I could not figure out where that much grease was going. The grease begins with a big V was slinging out leaving a grease film everywhere around and under engine, fine enough to be in the air stream. A film, because I would wipe excess at every service.

On my trip cross country I was greasing every two days and it was taking about 10 pumps per joint every 1000 miles. 10 pumps is a lot of grease from a professional gun.

When I got back I contacted Chevron tech line and they put me onto a industrial grease that was designed not to spin out at high rpm. Since then it only takes not even 3 pumps per 1000 and it doesn't stink.

Summary, if you ain't greasing you ain't going.
Do you by chance have the part number of this Chevron lube for U-Joints? I'd love to get my hands on some if possible. Sounds like we'll need it.
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Old 12-18-2013, 12:00 PM   #55
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Happy to. I'll dig out my paperwork tonight.
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Old 12-18-2013, 12:30 PM   #56
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Happy to. I'll dig out my paperwork tonight.
Thanks! I appreciate it
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