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Old 09-03-2011, 03:50 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Cruzer View Post
Decent quality surge protectors also feature voltage protection so if the pedestal voltage goes too low it'll kill power to the coach. If you put the surge protector prior to the AutoFormer it will kill power to the AutoFormer and render it useless. If you place it after the AutoFormer you will still protect the coach should anythig happen and the AutoFormer "might" boost the low voltage top a point where you can continue to operate the coach's electrical system. That's only if the voltage isn't too low though or else the AutoFormer won't be able to boost it enough to make it useable...
Reports I've read on other forums have said that the Hughes Autoformer responds too slowly to keep a better quality EMS, such as the Progressives, from shutting down for low voltage.
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Old 09-03-2011, 03:56 PM   #16
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It does have some surge protection but it's minimal and not up to the standards or specs of the Progressive EMS-HW-50C. It's probably good enough to protect itself but I wouldn't trust it on the entire coach.
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Old 09-03-2011, 04:41 PM   #17
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EMS-HW50C
4th item down on above website:
Surge Indicator:
If ever a power surge damages the surge protector circuit within the EMS L-N, or L-G, the digital display error code will read E-10. This is your indication that it needs to be replaced.

Steve
I don't get it! You haven't explain what you were trying to sate back in Post #4 ???

I have the EMS HW-50C unit and know about its functions and how valuable it is to protect a coach from faulty wiring at the pedestal. I have it in series with a PowerMaster that will increase voltage when necessary before it gets to the EMS HW-50C unit.

For those that want to learn about protecting your coach, do not read this thread as you will be more confused than when you started. There are plenty of really good threads on this topic. Do a Thread Search for Progressive Industries EMS HW50C and you will get plenty of good hits to read that really make sense.

Dr4Film ----- Richard.
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Old 09-03-2011, 05:34 PM   #18
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Hughes does not indicated on its site the Joule rating of the autoformer's surge protection. As stated above the EMS HW-50C is rated for about 3500 joules. The autoformer is about $550 the surge guard is about $350. It only make sense to have a $350 unit protecting a $550 dollar unit.

The argument against putting the EMS unit before the autoformer is when the incoming voltage gets down to 104 volts the EMS unit will shut down. On the other hand if the autoformer is before the EMS the incoming voltage is allowed to get to 95 volts and your electrical equipment will see a 10% boost to 104.5 volts. Now its common knowledge that electrical motors, especially A/C motors, when operated at a voltage less than 108 volts will be damaged and suffer loss of operating life. With the EMS unit before the autoformer, the incoming voltage, as just mention will get to 104 volts but the coach will never see a voltage less than 114 volts. This is an example of “just because you can, doesn't mean you should”.

In addition, the normal current at 120 volts will increase approxiamtely 13% at 104 volts. It's likely at that increase in current that pedistal breakers may start to trip as well as fuses in the park's electrical system and no one will have power.
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Old 09-03-2011, 06:58 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Dr4Film View Post
I don't get it! You haven't explain what you were trying to sate back in Post #4 ???

I have the EMS HW-50C unit and know about its functions and how valuable it is to protect a coach from faulty wiring at the pedestal. I have it in series with a PowerMaster that will increase voltage when necessary before it gets to the EMS HW-50C unit.

For those that want to learn about protecting your coach, do not read this thread as you will be more confused than when you started. There are plenty of really good threads on this topic. Do a Thread Search for Progressive Industries EMS HW50C and you will get plenty of good hits to read that really make sense.

Dr4Film ----- Richard.
Richard,

I am aware "you don't get it" so I will put it to you succinctly.
Tower connected to a surge guard protector which is connected to an autoformer which is plugged into the coach.
The surge protector is your last line of defense and will not burn out; however, it will trip when voltage gets too low. The autoformer transformer was built to work in conjunction with the surge protector because it may fail. It doesn’t trip but burns out.
http://www.autoformersdirect.com/q_and_a.php
If it fails and there's no surge protector backup available then you have to use your generator to prevent electrical problems in your RV.
I can go into more detail, if necessary.


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Old 09-03-2011, 07:30 PM   #20
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There is only 1 surge protector worth the $$. Progressive. If something goes wrong you can talk to the president.... And he will back it up....
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Old 09-03-2011, 07:42 PM   #21
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According to the electronics gurus, all surge protectors are sacrificial. A really big surge will take them out, or at least require replacement of the MOVs that do the protection. It doesn't have to be a single big surge either - multiple smaller ones will destroy the MOVs over time.
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Old 09-03-2011, 07:45 PM   #22
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I assume that all those arguing the merits here understands that surge protection has nothing to do with high or low voltages, floating and reversed grounds, etc.?

This all sounds like a semantics issue. You guys need to get on the same page.
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Old 09-03-2011, 11:47 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary RVRoamer View Post
According to the electronics gurus, all surge protectors are sacrificial. A really big surge will take them out, or at least require replacement of the MOVs that do the protection. It doesn't have to be a single big surge either - multiple smaller ones will destroy the MOVs over time.
Hi Gary,
I agree with the Metal Oxide Varistors problem and this is built into the voltage regulator/booster units. Once the Movs are worn out or burnt out; it's back to the factory for repair or replacement. IEEE Xplore - The physics of metal oxide varistors

In conclusion: I don't know why they can't build a voltage regulator with a surge protector without MOVs.
Until they do, I would purchase both.


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Old 09-04-2011, 12:07 AM   #24
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Hi Gary,
I agree with the Metal Oxide Varistors problem and this is built into the voltage regulator/booster units. Once the Movs are worn out or burnt out; it's back to the factory for repair or replacement. IEEE Xplore - The physics of metal oxide varistors

In conclusion: I don't know why they can't build a voltage regulator with a surge protector without MOVs.
Until they do, I would purchase both.


Steve
The Progressive EMS units use modular circuit boards that are user replaceable. There is no need to send them back to the factory when the MOVs expire.

If there was a way to make the surge arrestors without MOVs, I'm sure the manufacturers would. Not having to replace MOVs would be a huge selling point.
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Old 09-04-2011, 12:14 AM   #25
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The Progressive EMS units use modular circuit boards that are user replaceable. There is no need to send them back to the factory when the MOVs expire.

If there was a way to make the surge arrestors without MOVs, I'm sure the manufacturers would. Not having to replace MOVs would be a huge selling point.
LF,
Agreed but the surge protectors simply trip instead of burning or wearing out. There must be a way to combine both features into one product or is there no incentive to sell one item when you can sell 2?
I will leave that question to the experts,


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Old 09-04-2011, 05:18 AM   #26
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Surge protection IS the MOV's. That is exactly what they do and their only function.
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Old 09-04-2011, 06:41 AM   #27
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MOV's don't trip. The resistive properties of the MOV is affected by voltage. As voltage increases the resistive value decreases shunting surge current to ground. As circuit voltage returns to normal the resistance increases clamping off the flow of normal circuit current. MOV's can only safely handle the amount of surge energy of their rating, which for the EMS unit described is 3500 joules. When exposed to surge energy beyond their rating the MOV becomes damaged or destroyed.
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Old 09-04-2011, 09:41 AM   #28
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MOV's don't trip. The resistive properties of the MOV is affected by voltage. As voltage increases the resistive value decreases shunting surge current to ground. As circuit voltage returns to normal the resistance increases clamping off the flow of normal circuit current. MOV's can only safely handle the amount of surge energy of their rating, which for the EMS unit described is 3500 joules. When exposed to surge energy beyond their rating the MOV becomes damaged or destroyed.


Voltage Regulator | Technology Research Corporation
NOTE: The TRC Voltage Regulator is not a protective device and the connected RV will not be protected from damage should an open neutral or surge develop during the course of operation. The fault indicator panel is for indication only.
Using the TRC Voltage Regulator in conjunction with a Surge Guard RV power protection product provides the ultimate combination of low voltage and surge protection. The Surge Guard must be plugged in after or down stream of the TRC Voltage Regulator.

Steve
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