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Old 01-23-2016, 11:24 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Steady_Rest View Post
LS did the same thing with my rv, slipped off the jack stands. Only damage was one crushed stainless wheel cover. I went for a walk while the young fellow worked on the tire change, and returned just after it happened. He was quite nervous, but I him calmed him by saying mistakes are made when you work for a living. We were on vacation at the time, but when we returned home there was a new stainless wheel cover on my porch.

So what we are talking about are two industrial accidents, neither of which made the statistics because by luck no one was injured. I know that my rib cage barely fits under the coach when it is aired down.

Every Love's tire shop I have been to has a large sign on the wall showing days worked without an accident as well as the previous record. I don't remember seeing that at LS.
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Old 01-23-2016, 11:53 PM   #30
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Update:
Based on this discussion, I stopped at Love's today in Napavine, WA (near Olympia) and spoke to Jeremy. He explained that there were two industry published standards for the 22.5 inch wheels. One saying 500 lb ft and the other saying 450. So they split the difference and torque to 475. As mentioned in posts here, he explained that over-torquing tends to stretch and deform the bolt. Less of a problem in RV's, but a bigger problem in OTR trucking where tires may be changed or worked on every year. He estimated the impact wrench approach would produce about 600 lb ft. I noticed that when the LS guys used the impact wrench, the nut had not finished turning when they stopped, implying a certain amount of gut-feel in the process.

How much would he charge me to torque the nuts on all 4 wheels? No charge. All 40 were over 475, so that confirms the LS statement that they torque to more than a torque wrench would.

Wish I had bought from Love's, but when I emailed Yokohama about tires for my MH, they said they did not have a matching model.
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Old 01-24-2016, 06:23 AM   #31
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I have used impact guns all my career.

Any one who can tell you what it's doing as far as torque is guessing.

The lenght and diameter of the hose, the stage of the compressor and the condition of the anvil and socket all contribute to its power.

The first second you pull the trigger is the most impact. It goes down hill from there. That's why it's always good to go back around again.

We had long anvil and deep socket guns for deep wheels, because any extension cut the power delivered a considerable amount.

They IMPACT! It's like driving a well. If you keep hitting the pipe it keeps moving down but at lessening amounts each time.

In 40 years I never put a torque wrench in a lug nut but some of us knew which gun to use and had a feel for it being tight enough.
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Old 01-24-2016, 07:10 AM   #32
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And I'd bet your tyre pressures are 100psi all-round. Easy to remember.

I did think to ask about pressures. They were using their standard numbers of 110 front and 100 duals, which were 5psi low against my sticker numbers. Of course if you are in a shop that relies on Fred telling Bob, then who knows, but something you need to mention.
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Old 01-25-2016, 04:17 AM   #33
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Torque wrench for lug nuts - necessary?

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Originally Posted by FIRE UP View Post
Well gang,

As usual, generalities prevail. I've had the pleasure of dealing with two different Les Schwab stores and they not only were courteous and willing to get the job done quickly to get us back on the road but, they were PROFESSIONAL too. I watched as they jacked up the front of our coach, an '04 Itasca Horizon 36GD with the C-7 330HP CAT with two, air powered 20 ton jacks. ZERO issue there.



Then, they did the tire work/balance work and, remounted the 255 80R 22.5" Alloy wheels and tires back on the front with great care. They then spun all 10 lug nuts on each side very lightly 'till they bottomed out. At that point, they brought out the big 3/4" drive torque wrench. At that time, they let down both jacks simultaneously. The did the same exact procedure that I do when I remove and re-install my own wheels. That is, they torqued them to the 1/2 way point of the total torque required for those wheels/lugs. And that was 225 ft.lbs.



The torque wrench was reset to 450 ft. lbs. and, all 20 were retorqued to that setting. They were very conscious and aware of the highly polished wheels and took all precautions to avoid damage.



I'm not too sure I'd qualify that all Les Schwab outlets are operated the same. I was thoroughly happy with the service I received from them.

Scott

That is exactly the experience I was expecting. I turned down a couple of very competitive quotes in Arizona from smaller shops who know RVs, thinking I would get better service and follow up from a larger, geographically distributed chain. In hind-site, that was a mistake.

Despite their premium pricing, Les Schwab does not offer any follow-on service as I get from Sam's Club on my car (rotating, balancing and flat repair for the life of the tire). Truck/RV tires are basically "You bought it, you own it" and any future services are pay as you go.

I went to two LS stores because neither had enough tires in inventory. The first came across as professional from the beginning. They were careful and understood that they were dealing with alloy rims. The plan was to replace the steer tires with new and move the old tires to the rear. One mechanic jacked up and removed both front tires. The other jacked up and removed the rear tires on one side. The jacks they used were simple flat metal surfaces that pressed against flat metal on the bus chassis. On a DP you can lift both front tires and the brakes on the rear will hold the bus in place. Chocks should be used (they were not). If you also lift one of the rear wheels, the fourth wheel's brake will prevent it from rolling forward or back. However! It will not prevent the entire vehicle from swiveling on that wheel. That is exactly what happened and the bus fell off the jacks with an employee underneath. Despite the employees' care in dealing with the rims, they were untrained and therefore incompetent (and dangerous) in dealing with a heavy vehicle.

At the second LS location, the mechanic was completely incompetent in dealing with cosmetic rims. He could have just as well been dealing with a rusted steel rim. He did not know to remove the stainless hub cover before scratching it up with the impact wrench. He did not know to use the yellow rubber template to protect the wheel from the tools. At the first shop they used a 6 foot tool to remove the tire from the rim in two clean strokes. At the second shop he used a three foot crowbar-like tool to repeatedly try to get the tire off while scratching the rim. I got the impression that it was not so much incompetence as it was a total lack of training. They sent a car tire guy to do a motorhome essentially saying, "You figure it out".

Their attitude to the damage caused seemed to be "Hey, that's just the cost of doing business with Les Schwab; here is your bill".
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Old 01-25-2016, 10:39 AM   #34
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Over the last 10 years I have had RV tires changed (22.5's with 450lb torque) 5 times. Only once did the installer use a torque wrench and proper tightening sequence. The first time there was no torque wrench used so I asked and was told the impact wrench was "calibrated", yea right... When I got home I bought a 600 lb torque wrench and checked the lugs, out of the 20 they just installed about half were close the rest were loose or too tight. Another time I had two that were finger tight with others too tight. But 4 out of 5 times were not done correctly. My lug nuts have a built in washer which needs to be oiled so they don't damage the aluminum wheels. None of the installers ever did that but I did when I re-torqued them. Whenever I don't see the lugs installed correctly I redo them myself.
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Old 01-25-2016, 11:32 AM   #35
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All wheels need to set with a torque wrench. Trailers and car dollys too. Check them again after the first few miles. It is important that the owner of the vehicle be vigilant and watch the service center. You can't blindly trust anyone. It falls on your shoulders.
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Old 01-25-2016, 12:42 PM   #36
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When using the Torque wrench, in general, what should the wrench be set at ?
Most 22.5" lug nuts are torqued to 450-500 lb/ft.(pg 40> Lug nut torque depends entirely on the diameter of the lug bolt/stud. There is a long-standing torque chart to guide mechanics: Steel Bolt Torque Specifications Table - Engineer's Handbook

I can only speak for myself. I do not have the strength to remove lug nuts torqued to 450lb/ft that have rusted in-place for years. That's one reason I consider an emergency road service, money well-spent.
The first link (Accuride rims) states to use oil when installing a rim and lug nuts.
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Old 01-25-2016, 12:52 PM   #37
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Another reason why we torque. Bolts will come loose unless they are stretched but they can't be stretched beyond their elastic limit. That's why they come loose or break. If they are not stretched a certain amount they will come loose. Stretched too much and they will fatigue and break.
That's what a lot of people don't understand about torquing a bolt. You are actually stretching the bolt slightly. Torque it too much and you permanently stretch it and it will continue to loosen.
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Old 01-25-2016, 12:58 PM   #38
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Most 22.5" lug nuts are torqued to 450-500 lb/ft.(pg 40> Lug nut torque depends entirely on the diameter of the lug bolt/stud. There is a long-standing torque chart to guide mechanics: Steel Bolt Torque Specifications Table - Engineer's Handbook

I can only speak for myself. I do not have the strength to remove lug nuts torqued to 450lb/ft that have rusted in-place for years. That's one reason I consider an emergency road service, money well-spent.
The first link (Accuride rims) states to use oil when installing a rim and lug nuts.

The spec on my 22.5" is 475. Good reason to consult the torque specs for a particular coach/chassis.
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Old 01-25-2016, 04:31 PM   #39
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The spec on my 22.5" is 475. Good reason to consult the torque specs for a particular coach/chassis.
jt
Yep, that fits in the window, and conforms to the specs in the 2nd link.
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Old 01-25-2016, 06:02 PM   #40
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Bought a full set from Loves in Williams, AZ this past spring. Not only was the price competitive but the service was Very Good. Date codes were all within two months.
All studs were torqued to 475 Lb/Ft and then George (store Mgr) gave me directions to the next Loves Tire Shop down the road and told me to stop in to have them re-torqued.
Pulled in to the shop off the interstate, went in and asked if they could fit me in and the fellow grabbed the torque wrench and followed me back to the coach, checked all four wheels and wished me a safe trip.
I can certainly recommend Loves, in Arizona anyway
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Old 01-25-2016, 07:28 PM   #41
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And you also need to know how to use a torque wrench. If the lugs are run up with an impact wrench and then a torque wrench is put on to "check" the torque. Guess what! If the torque wrench doesn't turn the nut bringing it up to the proper torque how do you know it's not over torqued? Even torque on all lugnuts creates an assembly that with expand and contract evenly without distorting the components of the wheel, hub, and brake parts. Disc brakes are especially suseptable to warping due to uneven torque.
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Old 01-25-2016, 07:32 PM   #42
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And you also need to know how to use a torque wrench. If the lugs are run up with an impact wrench and then a torque wrench is put on to "check" the torque. Guess what! If the torque wrench doesn't turn the nut bringing it up to the proper torque how do you know it's not over torqued? Even torque on all lugnuts creates an assembly that with expand and contract evenly without distorting the components of the wheel, hub, and brake parts. Disc brakes are especially suseptable to warping due to uneven torque.
Agree, operator has to be smarter than the tool.
Proper Torquing procedure makes the job. Not just the wrench. Have you ever watched someone using a Click Style torque wrench and when it clicks, he gives it another two, three or four clicks just to make sure? Well, there went that torque spec out the window.
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