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Old 06-13-2016, 10:16 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by LVRVLUVR View Post
found the post...

Exhaust--MuffleróReplacement

Banks does not have a muffler, but AeroTurbine makes one that works very well on the diesel pushers. We dyno test them when installed at the shop and usually see big gains in torque on the tune of 60-85 ft. lb. tq. and about 35 HP. One of the best and safest improvements you can for economy and power on a diesel pusher!

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Banks does make a muffler. It is called the "Dyna flow".
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:05 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmurdock View Post
This is on a 95 BMC, 8.3 (mechanical) Cummins stock fueling system. Only change is Aeroturbine (fyi coach uses 4" exhaust. Numbers are from a chassis dyno (so they are rear wheel numbers).

Dyno results:

RPM: 1400 1500 1600 1700 1800 1900 2000 2100 2200
Stock HP 240 260 269 275 272 265 245 190 130
Stock Torque 775 776 752 725 690 625 550 415 275

Mod HP 270 285 290 293 286 262 205 140 65
Mod Torque 819 800 776 738 695 575 435 285 125

Gain:
HP 30 25 21 18 14 -3 -40 -50 -65
Torque 44 24 24 13 5 -50 -115 -130 -150

torque/hp cross at 2300 rpm stock, 2200 rpm with muffler mod


Brazel's Performance RV (BMC Service) - Wanderlodge Owners Group

You can follow the experimentation in this thread. Many other mods where tried out...
that huge drop on the top end would make me think that fuel management is dangerously off..if its going that lean... could be a problem..

the mod torque goes straight down hill

sounds to me like the above post is right... can't get more hp here with just a muffler swap

my self the low end gain wouldn't really benifit me as to loose the top and possible damage and loss of longivity
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:15 AM   #17
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Banks does make a muffler. It is called the "Dyna flow".
installed many... that was a quote copy from Jon
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Old 06-13-2016, 03:15 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmurdock View Post
This is on a 95 BMC, 8.3 (mechanical) Cummins stock fueling system. Only change is Aeroturbine (fyi coach uses 4" exhaust. Numbers are from a chassis dyno (so they are rear wheel numbers).

Dyno results:

RPM: 1400 1500 1600 1700 1800 1900 2000 2100 2200
Stock HP 240 260 269 275 272 265 245 190 130
Stock Torque 775 776 752 725 690 625 550 415 275

Mod HP 270 285 290 293 286 262 205 140 65
Mod Torque 819 800 776 738 695 575 435 285 125

Gain:
HP 30 25 21 18 14 -3 -40 -50 -65
Torque 44 24 24 13 5 -50 -115 -130 -150

torque/hp cross at 2300 rpm stock, 2200 rpm with muffler mod


Brazel's Performance RV (BMC Service) - Wanderlodge Owners Group

You can follow the experimentation in this thread. Many other mods where tried out...
I read the first 16 or 17 pages....

My first question was were those numbers from standard air, I see you guys discussed that later. Did you ever resolve if the difference between initial runs were caused by temp/ density issues or due to testing differences? Also discussed were the affect of different dyno's. The reduced back pressure of the aero lowered the engine rpm at which max boost was reach, hence there were less rpm with which to calculate HP from TQ. Very interesting discussion for sure.

But the end result being you have to modify fueling to get more power. The side benefit is probably a lower EGT on the piston side till you add fuel. I see that a straight pipe did not produce more power, either. Thanks for the post!
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Old 06-13-2016, 10:50 PM   #19
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Well,
You can post all the dyno numbers you like but, it's what the coach does in the REAL WORLD that counts. I've owned this coach for over five years now and I know what it does and did on certain hills, grades, flats, down hills and all that. I changed to that POS Aero 5050 XL about 3 years ago and, have been cursing it ever since. All that worthless thing did was make my CAT 330HP CAT LOUDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There was no power improvement, no mileage improvement, no cooler running improvement, no trans temp improvement, NOTHING! I have argued this 'till I'm blue in the face. This was by far, the most worthless "investment" ever in this coach. There are folks that like louder engines and motor homes etc. saying it they like the "throaty" noise. Well, a few hundred years ago, in my teenage years, I too might have liked more noise. But, not today.

I want it QUIET! As soon as we get back from this trip we're presently on, I'm looking into a Donaldson muffler as a replacement. Then this POS will go on Craigslist for someone else to listen to.
Scott
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Old 06-13-2016, 10:55 PM   #20
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I have installed 2 and in the process of doing one now. First on a 5.9 Dodge Cummins along with a banks tuner and intake, CAC, intake manifold gauges, etc. The 3 together were awesome, so much I had to upgrade the clutch. You can't add more fuel and timing without allowing more air in and out. Well you could but it wouldn't work nearly as well. The second was an 04 Journey with a 7.2 Cat C-7 also with an AFE filter and TST programmer, EGT gauge. Woke that coach right up big difference in power, lower EGT and yes a little better mileage as long as your not too happy and mashing the skinny pedal a lot. Currently I have an aero 5050xl being shipped for my Vectra with a 8.9 ISL. the stock muffler is very restrictive and they do it because it is nice and quiet. The lack of noise equals lots of back pressure to me. Less back pressure = faster turbo spool, lower EGT and more noise. On hills the temps in the exhaust manifold regularly get over 1250, the Aero muffler will lower the temps. How much? Don't know yet on the ISL but on the C-7 it was 200 degrees lower. The faster you can get the exhaust out the better imo. I plan on putting a larger replaceable element canister on this coach fleet-guard or Donaldson just haven't done it yet. Not real trusting of the Eco style filters after the one on my Journey got wet from rain while driving. The paper got sucked into the flange of the filter housing lucky it did not go further and get into the turbo. That's why I put the AFE on the Journey, didn't have room for a real canister and the AFE was my best option though I was nervous about it, it never showed anything odd in the oil samples. To do the Aero in both coaches all I needed was the muffler a 5" 90, 3 5" band clamps and some generic exhaust hangers. About $200 worth of parts and a couple hours of my time. Fire up.... I have a Cantex muffler sitting in my garage for the C-7. Came off a Journey, same as your Oem. You can have it for free if you want to change back. Pm me.
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Old 06-13-2016, 10:56 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by FIRE UP View Post
Well,
You can post all the dyno numbers you like but, it's what the coach does in the REAL WORLD that counts. I've owned this coach for over five years now and I know what it does and did on certain hills, grades, flats, down hills and all that. I changed to that POS Aero 5050 XL about 3 years ago and, have been cursing it ever since. All that worthless thing did was make my CAT 330HP CAT LOUDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There was no power improvement, no mileage improvement, no cooler running improvement, no trans temp improvement, NOTHING! I have argued this 'till I'm blue in the face. This was by far, the most worthless "investment" ever in this coach. There are folks that like louder engines and motor homes etc. saying it they like the "throaty" noise. Well, a few hundred years ago, in my teenage years, I too might have liked more noise. But, not today.

I want it QUIET! As soon as we get back from this trip we're presently on, I'm looking into a Donaldson muffler as a replacement. Then this POS will go on Craigslist for someone else to listen to.
Scott
thanks...

if you look at his dyno results he lost 150 tq and lost all the way down from 1800
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Old 06-14-2016, 04:43 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by FIRE UP View Post
Well,
You can post all the dyno numbers you like but, it's what the coach does in the REAL WORLD that counts. I've owned this coach for over five years now and I know what it does and did on certain hills, grades, flats, down hills and all that. I changed to that POS Aero 5050 XL about 3 years ago and, have been cursing it ever since. All that worthless thing did was make my CAT 330HP CAT LOUDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There was no power improvement, no mileage improvement, no cooler running improvement, no trans temp improvement, NOTHING! I have argued this 'till I'm blue in the face. This was by far, the most worthless "investment" ever in this coach. There are folks that like louder engines and motor homes etc. saying it they like the "throaty" noise. Well, a few hundred years ago, in my teenage years, I too might have liked more noise. But, not today.

I want it QUIET! As soon as we get back from this trip we're presently on, I'm looking into a Donaldson muffler as a replacement. Then this POS will go on Craigslist for someone else to listen to.
Scott
I was hoping that you would find this thread Scott, and post a "Real Life" experience about your muffler.
Today, my auto's except for my 27 year old FXSTS Harley, are quite/stock. When young, my parents taught us to be seen and not heard,,,,,, that is the way my auto's/Harley/Coach are today.
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Old 06-14-2016, 08:52 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by RSteele View Post
I have installed 2 and in the process of doing one now. First on a 5.9 Dodge Cummins along with a banks tuner and intake, CAC, intake manifold gauges, etc. The 3 together were awesome, so much I had to upgrade the clutch. You can't add more fuel and timing without allowing more air in and out. Well you could but it wouldn't work nearly as well. The second was an 04 Journey with a 7.2 Cat C-7 also with an AFE filter and TST programmer, EGT gauge. Woke that coach right up big difference in power, lower EGT and yes a little better mileage as long as your not too happy and mashing the skinny pedal a lot. Currently I have an aero 5050xl being shipped for my Vectra with a 8.9 ISL. the stock muffler is very restrictive and they do it because it is nice and quiet. The lack of noise equals lots of back pressure to me. Less back pressure = faster turbo spool, lower EGT and more noise. On hills the temps in the exhaust manifold regularly get over 1250, the Aero muffler will lower the temps. How much? Don't know yet on the ISL but on the C-7 it was 200 degrees lower. The faster you can get the exhaust out the better imo. I plan on putting a larger replaceable element canister on this coach fleet-guard or Donaldson just haven't done it yet. Not real trusting of the Eco style filters after the one on my Journey got wet from rain while driving. The paper got sucked into the flange of the filter housing lucky it did not go further and get into the turbo. That's why I put the AFE on the Journey, didn't have room for a real canister and the AFE was my best option though I was nervous about it, it never showed anything odd in the oil samples. To do the Aero in both coaches all I needed was the muffler a 5" 90, 3 5" band clamps and some generic exhaust hangers. About $200 worth of parts and a couple hours of my time. Fire up.... I have a Cantex muffler sitting in my garage for the C-7. Came off a Journey, same as your Oem. You can have it for free if you want to change back. Pm me.
thanks for the post...
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Old 06-14-2016, 09:40 AM   #24
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A muffler is sometimes (often?) a choke point in the engine air system, so it is certainly possible that a stock muffler can be improved upon for better performance, but it's not a given that some brand (e.g. Aero) will always be better than what you have (see LVRVLUVR's info). 5" pipes are perhaps better than 4" too, but if the engine air intake is restricted, making the outlet bigger does nothing. If it's performance you want, a shop like Brazell's can analyze what is going on and help you determine what to change to make it better. Otherwise, it's just guesswork, throwing parts and $ at it and see what happens.
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Old 06-14-2016, 09:57 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Gary RVRoamer View Post
A muffler is sometimes (often?) a choke point in the engine air system, so it is certainly possible that a stock muffler can be improved upon for better performance, but it's not a given that some brand (e.g. Aero) will always be better than what you have (see LVRVLUVR's info). 5" pipes are perhaps better than 4" too, but if the engine air intake is restricted, making the outlet bigger does nothing. If it's performance you want, a shop like Brazell's can analyze what is going on and help you determine what to change to make it better. Otherwise, it's just guesswork, throwing parts and $ at it and see what happens.
It was Brazels that did mine at Quartzsite AZ during one of the annual RV events held there yearly. That was really nothing more than a $550 dollar "experiment". Well, it failed drastically. And, for me, it's been like that for most of my history. In December of '78, I bought a brand spanking new, F-350 Ford with the 460. Outstanding truck, strong as an OX. I added dual, glass packs about 5 years into ownership. Even then, I was told it would "Open up" the air system.

Well, NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! No mileage gain, no power gain, nothing. JUST NOISE!!

Later in life, we purchased our first motor home, a '79 Class C 23' Dodge. It had the 440 in it. Again, I tried to "improve" it's performance. I added dual exhaust with open flow mufflers. Again, NOTHING. BOTH the truck and that 23' C, got 7 mpg before any muffler work and, 7 mpg AFTER THE MUFFLER WORK. And ZERO PERFORMANCE GAIN.

So, from now on, including the '04 Itasca Horizon 36GD with the C-7 CAT, there will be NO exhaust modifications, EVER! I made the mistake in changing to that junk Aero and will go back to a quieter muffler at my earliest convenience.
Scott
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Old 06-14-2016, 10:06 AM   #26
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Yep, like I said, if you don't add fuel you got nothing except paper gains.
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Old 06-14-2016, 04:15 PM   #27
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I installed the XL5050 on my C7 several years ago. I have no documentation but I do believe the reduced muffler pressure reduced exhaust temp and increased low end torque - yes, part of the price for the flow through muffler was increased exhaust noise that I rarely hear. The original muffler I removed weighed a ton (seemed like that) and I don't know if it was full of exhaust carbons, lots of restrictive baffles or something else. The 5050 is a straight flow through muffler and you'd probably get the same results by going to a straight pipe. Cruising down the highway we don't hear the exhaust - we do hear it when in tunnels or when next to a "Jersey barrier". It's never been loud enough to bother my wife or me and we don't have to turn the radio up real high volume to hear the music. (This is one of the few things Scott and I are in not agreement)
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Old 06-14-2016, 05:09 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by FIRE UP View Post
It was Brazels that did mine at Quartzsite AZ during one of the annual RV events held there yearly. That was really nothing more than a $550 dollar "experiment". Well, it failed drastically. And, for me, it's been like that for most of my history. In December of '78, I bought a brand spanking new, F-350 Ford with the 460. Outstanding truck, strong as an OX. I added dual, glass packs about 5 years into ownership. Even then, I was told it would "Open up" the air system.

Well, NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! No mileage gain, no power gain, nothing. JUST NOISE!!

Later in life, we purchased our first motor home, a '79 Class C 23' Dodge. It had the 440 in it. Again, I tried to "improve" it's performance. I added dual exhaust with open flow mufflers. Again, NOTHING. BOTH the truck and that 23' C, got 7 mpg before any muffler work and, 7 mpg AFTER THE MUFFLER WORK. And ZERO PERFORMANCE GAIN.

So, from now on, including the '04 Itasca Horizon 36GD with the C-7 CAT, there will be NO exhaust modifications, EVER! I made the mistake in changing to that junk Aero and will go back to a quieter muffler at my earliest convenience.
Scott
Were you making commensurate changes to the intake and fueling systems?
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