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Old 06-14-2016, 05:51 PM   #29
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Were you making commensurate changes to the intake and fueling systems?

No,
Brazels specifically told me that the Aero would do quite a bit in itself in relation to performance increases. As for modifying the fuel input, not only am I not schooled enough to even attempt something like that but, about 99.99% of the CAT techs I've spoken with say there's nothing to be done to the CAT fuel (HEUI SYSTEM) that would do any good. As for the air intake, in the past, I've tried those lousy "K & N" junk air cleaners and, just like the mufflers I've tried out, NOTHING, no gains what so ever. That's another thing I will NEVER, EVER use, is a K & N.

This engine (C-7) is as dependable as you can get, bone stock. I sure as heck don't want to jeopardize any dependability by goofing around with the fuel or air system. I tried the muffler cause I figured no harm could come to the motor by trying it.

I just had my valves adjusted by a great, competent tech at a CAT service center in Sparks NV. I enquired about flashing the computer so that my engine would then be a 350HP from a 330HP. He simply stated that the price would be, $645.00, FOR 20hp. His reasoning, CAT wants $500 for the flashing program and, they (the CAT service center) wants $145.00 for an hours work to do it.

$645.00 for a mere 20HP, nope, aint happening. I'll climb the grades and hills in the fashion I always have and, keep on depending on a bone stock motor. And yes, Ciderdog and I agree on a lot on this forum with the exception of the noise I acquired when the install of this muffler was done. Maybe one of these days him and I will get together so I can demonstrate that noise to him. It wakes up a whole camp ground when I leave and that's not even on the throttle.
Scott
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Old 06-14-2016, 06:12 PM   #30
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I wasn't referring simply to your RV. You listed a series of vehicles where you replaced the muffler or some other exhaust component without mentioning any change to the intake or fuel system.
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Old 06-14-2016, 08:58 PM   #31
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Fire up, I'm guessing you do not have an EGT gauge. Your loud muffler alone is helping to extend the life of your turbo, exhaust system etc, so there is some passive benefit. Like posted earlier without more air in and more fuel your not going to see or feel a bunch of power. I didn't notice the noise in my Journey but I also had some noise deadening matierial left over from a truck install that I threw under the bed on top of the metal access hatches even before I put the Aero on. It was made by a company called Second Skin. Maybe that helped out. That stock muffler is very restrictive. You can put a resonator in front of the muffler and it will quiet it down a bit. Donaldson makes a good one.
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Old 06-15-2016, 10:44 AM   #32
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I have no horse in this race. Fire up and I have communicated on many items going back to our Bounder days, and I did tell him my Aero mod was positive. So I suppose I owe the man a beer!

Gary did a good job talking about choke points on the flow of exhausts. I think this is key, and why one person sees a gain, and another does not. It's both on the air intake side, and exhaust side. Even the same model coach, in the same year, can be different in regards to 'choke points' - if they're different model lengths. And for sure different years of the same model can be different.

For my 04 CC Allure with ISL CAPS engine, I did note an improvement, slight but I felt noticeable. Our OEM muffler was a good one to start with, so while the Aero improved on flow, it was not as dramatic as I've heard about from others with different chassis and coaches. Our improvement I felt was related to a bit faster ramp up of the turbo (This being the CAPS era ISL, does not have the higher PSI Variable Geometry Turbo (VGT) of later ISL's. So my results could be different.). Third to fourth gear around town driving RPM's, were where I feel I felt it the difference. Merging onto highways was a bit easier getting up to speed. (Same on ramp I always use, where we have a short space to get up to speed. So I know that onramp and merge well.)

Also as mentioned, the front end of the engines intake breathing can also be a real choke point on some coaches. Not the case on ours, as my Allure has the same Air Canister and cartridge that serves the BIG BLOCK CATS of that era. So more then enough CFM to support our ISL.

Noise? Normal highway driving, at 40' back say compared to a shorter right, no real difference. Yeah, idling down the street or in a campground, it is a bit more throaty sounding, but keeping the RPM downs controls that. Where I hear it the most, and I enjoy the sound, is on onramps that have concrete retaining walls on the exhaust side. The engine is spooling up to highway speed, and the exhaust reflects that sound off of the walls. And of course, in tunnels.

I do not have, more care, about any improvements on MPG. I've made other mod's to our coach to improve the HP that goes to the wheels, as that is what I was trying to maximize. (For example, I had the Source Engineering Wax Valve installed inlace of the there speed fan controller on our coach. The fan runs at only the speed required to maintain cooling. And, when i changed to Final Charge coolant, I also noted the engine ran cooler too. These to combine to allow more engine HP to go to the wheels, vs fan cooling.)

The Aero, and the SE Variable Wax Valve fan control, as well as a Cummins ECM program mod from ISL370 to 400 configuration, have provided a bit more power for hill climbing. Probably all combined, less then 7%, but that is still more HP going to the wheels.

I think the best advise I can give to anyone on looking at 'breathing intake/exhaust' related mods to a coach, is to network with other owners of your same configuration. Find out what works, do the math on the costs, and then decide if it is worth it to you. And actually, if anyone is looking into buying a coach now - the best advise I can give is to buy the BIGGEST BLOCK ENGINE you can find in a coach that meets your budget and needs. Then just go drive the thing!

Best to all,
Smitty
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Old 06-15-2016, 11:10 AM   #33
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I plan on getting one (or similar) at some point in the near future just to try and help with EGT's. Pumps turned up, fuel plate, new manifold/turbo. Got PLENTY of power but I can push the EGT to 1400+ if I want (I don't!). Good thing about mechanical engines is they are relatively cheap to turn up..bad thing is there is no computer to keep you from doing something REALLY stupid and expensive.
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Old 06-15-2016, 11:11 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty77 View Post
I have no horse in this race. Fire up and I have communicated on many items going back to our Bounder days, and I did tell him my Aero mod was positive. So I suppose I owe the man a beer!

Gary did a good job talking about choke points on the flow of exhausts. I think this is key, and why one person sees a gain, and another does not. It's both on the air intake side, and exhaust side. Even the same model coach, in the same year, can be different in regards to 'choke points' - if they're different model lengths. And for sure different years of the same model can be different.

For my 04 CC Allure with ISL CAPS engine, I did note an improvement, slight but I felt noticeable. Our OEM muffler was a good one to start with, so while the Aero improved on flow, it was not as dramatic as I've heard about from others with different chassis and coaches. Our improvement I felt was related to a bit faster ramp up of the turbo (This being the CAPS era ISL, does not have the higher PSI Variable Geometry Turbo (VGT) of later ISL's. So my results could be different.). Third to fourth gear around town driving RPM's, were where I feel I felt it the difference. Merging onto highways was a bit easier getting up to speed. (Same on ramp I always use, where we have a short space to get up to speed. So I know that onramp and merge well.)

Also as mentioned, the front end of the engines intake breathing can also be a real choke point on some coaches. Not the case on ours, as my Allure has the same Air Canister and cartridge that serves the BIG BLOCK CATS of that era. So more then enough CFM to support our ISL.

Noise? Normal highway driving, at 40' back say compared to a shorter right, no real difference. Yeah, idling down the street or in a campground, it is a bit more throaty sounding, but keeping the RPM downs controls that. Where I hear it the most, and I enjoy the sound, is on onramps that have concrete retaining walls on the exhaust side. The engine is spooling up to highway speed, and the exhaust reflects that sound off of the walls. And of course, in tunnels.

I do not have, more care, about any improvements on MPG. I've made other mod's to our coach to improve the HP that goes to the wheels, as that is what I was trying to maximize. (For example, I had the Source Engineering Wax Valve installed inlace of the there speed fan controller on our coach. The fan runs at only the speed required to maintain cooling. And, when i changed to Final Charge coolant, I also noted the engine ran cooler too. These to combine to allow more engine HP to go to the wheels, vs fan cooling.)

The Aero, and the SE Variable Wax Valve fan control, as well as a Cummins ECM program mod from ISL370 to 400 configuration, have provided a bit more power for hill climbing. Probably all combined, less then 7%, but that is still more HP going to the wheels.

I think the best advise I can give to anyone on looking at 'breathing intake/exhaust' related mods to a coach, is to network with other owners of your same configuration. Find out what works, do the math on the costs, and then decide if it is worth it to you. And actually, if anyone is looking into buying a coach now - the best advise I can give is to buy the BIGGEST BLOCK ENGINE you can find in a coach that meets your budget and needs. Then just go drive the thing!

Best to all,
Smitty
I have to agree on the buy the biggest motor love the way the 8.9 1200 tq gets around... mostly disappointment was what I got out of the 5.9's and 6.7s
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Old 06-15-2016, 06:21 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Smitty77 View Post
And actually, if anyone is looking into buying a coach now - the best advise I can give is to buy the BIGGEST BLOCK ENGINE you can find in a coach that meets your budget and needs. Then just go drive the thing!

Best to all,
Smitty
I agree. You can spend a bunch of money chasing a few per cent gain.
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Old 06-16-2016, 04:55 PM   #36
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When my tail pipe rusted out around the muffler on my ISC, I just removed the muffler and extended the flex pipe out to the same exit point.

It is a little louder obviously but certainly not too loud.....its way behind you so it's no big deal, why waste money on a straight thru muffler when you can just run a straight pipe??



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Old 06-16-2016, 06:31 PM   #37
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Just out of curiosity I weighed the two stock mufflers I have that came out or DP Motorhomes. One was from an 04 Winnebago Journey with a 7.2 Cat C-7 it weighs 57 pounds. The other is from an 07 Winnebago Vectra with an 8.9 Cummins ISL it weighs 74 pounds both Freightliner chassis. The Aero turbine weighs about 10 pounds. The Isl muffler has 1/8" holes in a 5" diameter pipe inside the inlet. The perforations go for about 8 inches then there is a solid baffle the same diameter as the outside muffler case. The outlet side is the same with 1/8 perforations. So all of your exhaust has to go through the 1/8 holes and through whatever is in the middle of the muffler, then out more 1/8 holes. I would be curious to know what the cfm rating of the stock muffler is. Judging by how quiet it was there has got to be some performance to be had by going to a less restrictive muffler. I tried a 51" Donaldson on my dodge truck some years back. Donaldson makes a bunch of them so you have to do some research. It was a good balance between quiet and performance. Better than stock but didn't lower the egt's as much as the aero turbine 5050. The one on the left is from the ISL coach.
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