Go Back   iRV2 Forums > MOTORHOME FORUMS > Class A Motorhome Discussions
Click Here to Login
Join iRV2 Today

Mission Statement: Supporting thoughtful exchange of knowledge, values and experience among RV enthusiasts.
Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on iRV2
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 09-17-2013, 03:59 PM   #15
Senior Member
 
chboone's Avatar


 
National RV Owners Club
Ford Super Duty Owner
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Horse Town USA, CA.
Posts: 2,933
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccash View Post
That filter was probably 5-6+ years old and was a FARR. Thanks for the extra info CaptBill! I will do that, chboone. I used normal Prestone 50/50 mix for the generator. I wasn't aware that it needed any special type.
If it's a diesel it needs to have SCA in it or some other additive to prevent liner pitting caused by cavitation of the wet sleeves. Also controls corrosion and improves heat transfer. Pencool 3000 is one of the popular products used. Check with NAPA or a local truck stop if they have it or something similar. Just make sure it is compatible with the coolant you used which Pencool 3000 is. Also look for Fleetguard DCA4 basically the same product.

Chuck
__________________

__________________
1999 35 ft. Dolphin 5350,F53 Chassis Chassis build date 1/99, Banks System, 5 Stars Tune, Air Lift Air Bags front & rear, Koni Shocks,Blue OX TruCenter,TigerTrak track bars front & rear, Roadmaster 1-3/4" rear auxiliary sway bar,2004 F450 Lariat 6.0 Diesel Crew Cab DRW with B & W Custom Truck Bed, 1994 36 ft. Avion 5th Wheel
chboone is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 RV Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

iRV2.com RV Community - Are you about to start a new improvement on your RV or need some help with some maintenance? Do you need advice on what products to buy? Or maybe you can give others some advice? No matter where you fit in you'll find that iRV2 is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with other RV owners, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create an RV blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 09-17-2013, 07:22 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
Ford Super Duty Owner
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Kitts Hill, OH
Posts: 1,863
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccash View Post
.......
My dad said he never had the air filter changed because the filter minder always read that it was ok. Here's proof of why these filters need to be changed regardless of the filter minder reading or the amount of miles driven:
.....

......
If you look down in that filter in the lower pic you can see the only thing the Holding the filter media from collapsing in are the rows of Glue.
It kinda reminds of how Fram uses a piece of string to keep the filter media flom bloating out on the inside wall of the canister of their oil filters.
ITS JUST PLAIN CHEAP!!
I would find (Even if i had to adapt ) a much better filter, something with steel screen on the OD and ID like this one
Napa Gold 6433 Air Filter s 27 4 | eBay .
__________________

__________________
(RVM#26) THE U-RV 94 F-700/24 foot U-haul box home built RV
Mekanic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2013, 09:01 PM   #17
Senior Member
 
spike45's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Cookeville, TN
Posts: 778
What Really Happened to this air cleaner

The paper is grey due to a high amount of soot ingestion. Filters that have accumulated dust are tan colored. In examining the pictures closely, there is no apparent free dust that is loose.

This Farr Ecolite has been installed by the OEM to be side inlet, end outlet. For these Farr filters that is a fatal combination. On the inlet (Side) seen in the picture you can see the spiral bead of hotmelt. Within that hotmelt are imbedded fiberglass strings to keep the filter paper from being sucked into the inlet when the filter is plumbed to be END as inlet and SIDE as outlet which is more common on a lot of fire truck chassis I have looked at over the past few years before I retired from Fleetguard.

The third thing on this is that with the C7 or any Caterpillar engine with ACERT, the inlet air flow is very high compared to a comparable Cummins engine such as the ISB 6.7 or even the ISC 8.3.

Given this combination of high inlet, high delta P (restriction) from embedded soot, it is no wonder that the paper was sucked into the turbo. All of the paper is not there. You need to see where it went. Yes, the CAC is the first place to look. It may be next to impossible to get it out and require replacement instead.

For those who commented that regular replacement of air cleaners would prevent this.....WRONG. Soot builds up very fast if the inlet is too near the exhaust or the inlet plumbing before the filter is pulling air from the engine compartment where you might have an exhaust leak. Soot plugged air filters are NOT common but they happen enough to remember the situation. Soot plugged filters typically have no free dust that you can remove or shake out. They also do not weigh significantly more than a new air filter. My guess is the filter restriction gauge is mounted directly on the air filter outlet side meaning it is hard to see it. There are remote mount Filter Minders available from Engineered Products (inventors of the product). You can mount the gauge where you check the engine oil so that it becomes a much more frequent check.

It appears that most motor home chassis are built by Freightliner. The Farr Ecolite appears to be their only choice for air cleaners. Too bad it is such a poor product. Farr tells the OEMs that this filter can be installed in either flow direction. It is better as an END inlet, SIDE outlet so the spiral hotmelt with embedded fiberglass strings can keep this from happening as easily as this has. As far as I know, all brands of replacement air filter for the Farr use the Farr manufactured product with the filter brand name applied.

If you can, consider using a Fleetguard OptiAir 1300 which is a housing with replaceable filter elements. Elements that have metal inner and outer expanded metal wrap. Plus that housing design has a built in precleaner which makes this a much better heavy dust air filter. In the case of this soot plugging, even the OptiAir would have trouble separating the soot with its precleaner but it would not have had the collapse issue where media was torn from the pleat pack and ingested. The metal inner wrap would have prevented that.

One last comment from a windy old service engineer.....that story I read about the glue getting weak after two years is BALONEY. That is just the ignorance of Freightliner in their defense of this poor choice for an air cleaner. They know its issues and continue to use it in production.
__________________
Spike45
Gary Spires
Retired Cummins (Fleetguard) Field Engineer
spike45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2013, 10:12 PM   #18
Registered User
 
Fleetwood Owners Club
iRV2 No Limits Club
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: REGINA
Posts: 623
Not good...................Damage could be done. With that gaping hole I'd be worried that the engine got "dusted". It doesn't take much. Once you get it back into service and get some miles on it, see if it has a higher oil consumption.
I've mentioned this to many people at many times...."Don't go by the restrictor gauge". If the element comes apart you will have "0" restriction but you also have no filtration.
__________________
TRAILERKING is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2013, 10:32 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
chboone's Avatar


 
National RV Owners Club
Ford Super Duty Owner
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Horse Town USA, CA.
Posts: 2,933
Gary is correct, during my years of servicing emergency standby diesel generators for a So. CA. Water District the Fleetguard air filters are by far much better built then Farr. You can really tell the difference when you put up both of them, Fleetguard is much heavier than the Farr. Same with oil filters use CAT or Fleetguard. If anything did break off the element and is not stuck on one of the turbo blades it will be in the aftercooler. Run the engine for a few hours, take an oil sample and see if comes back with high silica count.

Chuck
__________________
1999 35 ft. Dolphin 5350,F53 Chassis Chassis build date 1/99, Banks System, 5 Stars Tune, Air Lift Air Bags front & rear, Koni Shocks,Blue OX TruCenter,TigerTrak track bars front & rear, Roadmaster 1-3/4" rear auxiliary sway bar,2004 F450 Lariat 6.0 Diesel Crew Cab DRW with B & W Custom Truck Bed, 1994 36 ft. Avion 5th Wheel
chboone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2013, 05:21 AM   #20
Senior Member
 
jerichorick's Avatar
 
Winnebago Owners Club
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Full-timer/volunteer w/SOWERS
Posts: 3,394
Quote:
Originally Posted by chboone View Post
If it's a diesel it needs to have SCA in it or some other additive to prevent liner pitting caused by cavitation of the wet sleeves. Also controls corrosion and improves heat transfer. Pencool 3000 is one of the popular products used. Check with NAPA or a local truck stop if they have it or something similar. Just make sure it is compatible with the coolant you used which Pencool 3000 is. Also look for Fleetguard DCA4 basically the same product.

Chuck
Chuck, according to Cummins the cavitation problem has been dealt with by not having the coolant running directly against the sleeve. I was at Cummins getting parts several years ago and a guy came in with a pot that looked like a sieve. This is when I was told that the new engine design had solved that problem. But Cummins does insist that their antifreeze is to be used because of the way they formulate it. Compatible may not be 'complete package'. For you who are wiser in this than I, I will trust that you know what you are doing.

Great input Chuck.

But the air filter coming apart is another issue. What a heartbreak!
__________________
Rick & Melissa Young & Dawson, 2011 Itasca Meridian 40U, Freightliner XCL, Cummins ISL 380HP/DEF, Allison 3000 MH, 2014 Honda CR-V, SMI AF1, Blue Ox tow equip., TST 507 TPMS, TruCenter steering control, Hughes auto transformer.
Servants On Wheels Ever Ready. Best job we ever paid to do . (full time volunteers)
jerichorick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2013, 06:45 AM   #21
Senior Member
 
jerichorick's Avatar
 
Winnebago Owners Club
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Full-timer/volunteer w/SOWERS
Posts: 3,394
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mekanic View Post
X2 on that.

Has Anyone look for a better designed filter than the factory ones? The ones that fit my Ford have a Steel cap & steel screen on the outside AND inside of the filter media.
Now that's the way to go! Why not for the DPs? What a great insurance policy and I AM willing to pay for that one.

Common Cummins, Detroit..., Freightliner, Workhorse... Get with it and demand this type of protection for your customers from your filter manufactures.
__________________
Rick & Melissa Young & Dawson, 2011 Itasca Meridian 40U, Freightliner XCL, Cummins ISL 380HP/DEF, Allison 3000 MH, 2014 Honda CR-V, SMI AF1, Blue Ox tow equip., TST 507 TPMS, TruCenter steering control, Hughes auto transformer.
Servants On Wheels Ever Ready. Best job we ever paid to do . (full time volunteers)
jerichorick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2013, 12:41 PM   #22
Senior Member
 
chboone's Avatar


 
National RV Owners Club
Ford Super Duty Owner
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Horse Town USA, CA.
Posts: 2,933
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerichorick View Post
Chuck, according to Cummins the cavitation problem has been dealt with by not having the coolant running directly against the sleeve. I was at Cummins getting parts several years ago and a guy came in with a pot that looked like a sieve. This is when I was told that the new engine design had solved that problem. But Cummins does insist that their antifreeze is to be used because of the way they formulate it. Compatible may not be 'complete package'. For you who are wiser in this than I, I will trust that you know what you are doing.

Great input Chuck.

But the air filter coming apart is another issue. What a heartbreak!
Thanks Rick, was not aware of that design change from Cummins. When I retired last year they were in the process of installing several new diesel generators Cummins and CAT. I left before any training on them, wonder when that change was made. As for the air filters with internal retaining screens, both Fleetguard and CAT have it. Not sure if WIX has it, NAPA filter are made by WIX.

Chuck
__________________
1999 35 ft. Dolphin 5350,F53 Chassis Chassis build date 1/99, Banks System, 5 Stars Tune, Air Lift Air Bags front & rear, Koni Shocks,Blue OX TruCenter,TigerTrak track bars front & rear, Roadmaster 1-3/4" rear auxiliary sway bar,2004 F450 Lariat 6.0 Diesel Crew Cab DRW with B & W Custom Truck Bed, 1994 36 ft. Avion 5th Wheel
chboone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2013, 07:46 PM   #23
Senior Member
 
Steve Ownby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cosby, Tn
Posts: 6,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerichorick View Post

Chuck, according to Cummins the cavitation problem has been dealt with by not having the coolant running directly against the sleeve. I was at Cummins getting parts several years ago and a guy came in with a pot that looked like a sieve. This is when I was told that the new engine design had solved that problem. But Cummins does insist that their antifreeze is to be used because of the way they formulate it. Compatible may not be 'complete package'. For you who are wiser in this than I, I will trust that you know what you are doing.

Great input Chuck.

But the air filter coming apart is another issue. What a heartbreak!
I'm not sure this is factual. The Cummins ISB is the only Cummins I'm aware of that is not a wet sleeve design. He could have been referring to the new OAT type coolants that don't have the same DCA requirements and are advertised to go for much longer periods with no additive package. I don't think the engine design has been changed so that cavitation is no longer an issue.
__________________
Steve Ownby
Full time since 2007
2003 Monaco Signature
Steve Ownby is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2013, 08:34 PM   #24
Senior Member
 
spike45's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Cookeville, TN
Posts: 778
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerichorick View Post
Chuck, according to Cummins the cavitation problem has been dealt with by not having the coolant running directly against the sleeve.
That is not true. The design changes at Cummins that are most responsible for increased resistance to cavitation are the midstop liner and the offset wrist pin bore in the piston. For decades, Cummins used top stop liners as did Caterpillar, DDC, International, MTU, etc. The top stop design had the top of the liner ledge pressed into a counterbore in the top deck. The midstop liner has the top flange moved to about half way down the length of the liner to sit on a ledge at the bottom of the water jacket. This makes the liner more rigid when pressed into the block as it has an interference (press fit) fit at the top deck and below the ledge. More rigidity means less liner vibration. Cavitation pitting is cause by a vibration induced from combustion and piston skirt slap on the power stroke. The vibrating liner is much like a tuning fork. The rapid movement of the liner causes low pressure zones in the coolant creating coolant vapor bubbles which collapse with immense intensity creating pits in the grain structure of the liner. Use of coolants meeting Cummins specs is still required. Coolants that have shown the ability to protect against cavitation pitting are:

Fleetguard ES Compleat (requires use of an SCA for maintenance dose)
Fleetguard Fleetcool EX
Fleetguard Fleetcool
Old World Fleet Charge
Old World Final Charge
Fleetguard ES Compleat OAT
Shell Ultra
Chevron Delo Nitrite-Free
John Deere Cool Gard II
ETU ThermoPro HO
ThermoPro HD

There are others but these are the most common. Look for the designation 'Meets ASTM D6210 or Cummins CES14603"

Do not use DEXCOOL in any diesel engine. There is NO liner pitting protection.
__________________
Spike45
Gary Spires
Retired Cummins (Fleetguard) Field Engineer
spike45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2013, 08:40 PM   #25
Senior Member
 
spike45's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Cookeville, TN
Posts: 778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Ownby View Post
I'm not sure this is factual. The Cummins ISB is the only Cummins I'm aware of that is not a wet sleeve design. He could have been referring to the new OAT type coolants that don't have the same DCA requirements and are advertised to go for much longer periods with no additive package. I don't think the engine design has been changed so that cavitation is no longer an issue.
Steve,

You are correct. The ISB 5.9 and 6.7 are parent bore designs. The bore is cast into the cylinder block. They have ZERO history of cavitation pitting. In Dodge pickups use of standard automobile coolant is satisfactory. It does not hurt to use HD coolant with SCA or the new 2nd generation OAT coolants though....just not required.
__________________
Spike45
Gary Spires
Retired Cummins (Fleetguard) Field Engineer
spike45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2013, 05:20 AM   #26
Senior Member
 
jerichorick's Avatar
 
Winnebago Owners Club
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Full-timer/volunteer w/SOWERS
Posts: 3,394
Quote:
Originally Posted by chboone View Post
Thanks Rick, was not aware of that design change from Cummins. When I retired last year they were in the process of installing several new diesel generators Cummins and CAT. I left before any training on them, wonder when that change was made. As for the air filters with internal retaining screens, both Fleetguard and CAT have it. Not sure if WIX has it, NAPA filter are made by WIX.

Chuck
I think the IS series engines are designed with dry pots. They have been around for years. When I worked with gensets the QS60 was our most popular model. That was many years ago. If I recall it was a three banger, but what a reliable machine. The school I went to, as my memory drifts back those many years, talked of pitting and how Cummins had overcome it.

Thanks for the filter suggestions Chuck. I will see if I can cross reference my #. I was having a problem but I may have been in the wrong table. I just hate the thought of the filter not having some sort of protection from that type of failure. But the at Freightliner would use such a product? Shameful in my mind.

Rick
__________________
Rick & Melissa Young & Dawson, 2011 Itasca Meridian 40U, Freightliner XCL, Cummins ISL 380HP/DEF, Allison 3000 MH, 2014 Honda CR-V, SMI AF1, Blue Ox tow equip., TST 507 TPMS, TruCenter steering control, Hughes auto transformer.
Servants On Wheels Ever Ready. Best job we ever paid to do . (full time volunteers)
jerichorick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2013, 05:49 AM   #27
Senior Member
 
Steve N Sal's Avatar
 
Newmar Owners Club
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 5,614
Boy, it's a good thing he now has you looking after things.
__________________
Steve & Sally / HiTee & Hudson Our Little Poms / Heidi & Houston Forever in our Hearts
04 NEWMAR MACA 3778 W22 / 05 PT Vert
Michigan (Summer) Michigan (Winter For Now)
Steve N Sal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2013, 08:09 PM   #28
Senior Member
 
spike45's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Cookeville, TN
Posts: 778
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerichorick View Post
I think the IS series engines are designed with dry pots. They have been around for years. When I worked with gensets the QS60 was our most popular model. That was many years ago. If I recall it was a three banger, but what a reliable machine. The school I went to, as my memory drifts back those many years, talked of pitting and how Cummins had overcome it.

Thanks for the filter suggestions Chuck. I will see if I can cross reference my #. I was having a problem but I may have been in the wrong table. I just hate the thought of the filter not having some sort of protection from that type of failure. But the at Freightliner would use such a product? Shameful in my mind.

Rick
Only the Cummins B5.9, B3.9, ISB series are parent bore engines (no liners).

The QSK60, V16 is a popular genset engine as well as the main power for Komatsu 930Series Mining trucks. There is also the QSK78 (liter) and the QSV91 and yet another bigger one.
__________________

__________________
Spike45
Gary Spires
Retired Cummins (Fleetguard) Field Engineer
spike45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
maintenance



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.