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Old 05-09-2015, 12:30 PM   #71
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I'm not complaining about craftsmanship. I know they don't use the best materials. That's not the complaint. I think the craftsmanship in my cabinets and other components are acceptable. It's when all those components go to the line for installation that poor workmanship shows up. I've had so many things wrong that I didn't even mention. Another example is a basement door. I struggled to get it open. When I tried to close it, the latch was so far out of adjustment there was no way it would close. The latch screws were tight. Someone on the line went to a lot of trouble getting it closed being that far off. The rear door over the rear holding tank hits the drain cap. I have to lift and actually spring the door to clear and close it. These things had to have been deliberate.
Rod, I think you have hit it on the head. The definitions say it all. The manufacturers hire workmen and we expect craftsmen. Our training and career paths do not seem very high when compared to European standards. There workers are trained in their chosen professions and spend years before they are allowed to enter their field. Here you can walk in and have a job tomorrow.

crafts′man·like′ adj.
crafts′man·ly adj.
crafts′man·ship′ n.
American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2011 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.
craftsman

(ˈkrɑːftsmən) n, pl -men1. (Crafts) a member of a skilled trade; someone who practises a craft; artisan
2. (Crafts) Also called: craftswoman (fem)an artist skilled in the techniques of an art or craft

ˈcraftsmanˌlike adj ˈcraftsmanly adj ˈcraftsmanˌship n

workman


Also found in: Medical, Legal, Financial, Idioms, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia. work·man

(wûrk′mən)n.1. A man who performs manual or industrial labor for wages.
2. A craftsman or artisan.

American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2011 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.
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Old 05-11-2015, 07:18 PM   #72
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well after another weekend of shopping the new rvs and looking at most all the different high end brands, we have decided to remodel our 2004. we can't find what we are looking for and the "bones" are solid so rather than get stuck with a $300k+ POS, we will renovate!!!

What really gets me is there is MORE room in our '04 slides in and out than anything we looked at. the kicker is really how ROADABLE a coach is when the slides are in. ease in moving around inside when the slides are in is somewhat impossible in some of these coaches. Ill keep my old one. thanks all!!
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Old 05-11-2015, 08:34 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by TBS-POPS View Post
well after another weekend of shopping the new rvs and looking at most all the different high end brands, we have decided to remodel our 2004. we can't find what we are looking for and the "bones" are solid so rather than get stuck with a $300k+ POS, we will renovate!!!

What really gets me is there is MORE room in our '04 slides in and out than anything we looked at. the kicker is really how ROADABLE a coach is when the slides are in. ease in moving around inside when the slides are in is somewhat impossible in some of these coaches. Ill keep my old one. thanks all!!

Your Endeavor is one of the models I have on my list of possible purchase it seams obvious you really like it.
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Old 05-11-2015, 09:04 PM   #74
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well after another weekend of shopping the new rvs and looking at most all the different high end brands, we have decided to remodel our 2004. we can't find what we are looking for and the "bones" are solid so rather than get stuck with a $300k+ POS, we will renovate!!!

What really gets me is there is MORE room in our '04 slides in and out than anything we looked at. the kicker is really how ROADABLE a coach is when the slides are in. ease in moving around inside when the slides are in is somewhat impossible in some of these coaches. Ill keep my old one. thanks all!!
I'm glad you prefer your 04 Endeavor. It's always cheaper to renovate than buy new plus you end up with a like new coach just the way you want it. Good choice. However, stating that your 04 slides have MORE room when in or out is a physical impossibility. If the new coaches are tighter when closed than yours, it is because the slide outs are deeper and thus create more room when extended. In a 102" wide body you can not have more room extended and more room to walk when retracted. You get one or the other.
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Old 05-11-2015, 09:35 PM   #75
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American Consumers are Fickle if the quality bar is raised one of 2 things has to happen Price goes up or Toy count goes down. This means 1TV instead of 5
2 slides instead of 4 1 b/w back up camera instead of 3 color and the list goes on. They are all trying to compete in the same market and as always the one with the most toys wins! There have been plenty of manufactures trying to build quality and compete most of them are gone or now owned by someone else.
The percentage of buyers that come to a forum such as this before they purchase is minute compared to market size.
In terms of the price of the toys, TV's and color camera monitors are fairly inexpensive these days. Today you can get four flat screen 40" TVs for the price of what used to be just one. And, they are much lighter and of course, thinner than the old tube TVs...meaning, you can put them just about anywhere. Heck, even the price of long HDMI cable runs have come way down.

But I'll admit that some of the manufacturers have gone a bit overboard by putting the TVs so close together. Sometimes, less is more.
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Old 05-13-2015, 07:44 AM   #76
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I'm glad you prefer your 04 Endeavor. It's always cheaper to renovate than buy new plus you end up with a like new coach just the way you want it. Good choice. However, stating that your 04 slides have MORE room when in or out is a physical impossibility. If the new coaches are tighter when closed than yours, it is because the slide outs are deeper and thus create more room when extended. In a 102" wide body you can not have more room extended and more room to walk when retracted. You get one or the other.
No Crasher it's not impossible. The way they mount the furniture in the newer coaches is dumb. They mount stuff 6" off the wall in the slides and have a space behind. On both sides that adds up to 12". We easily have a 12" wider walkway in our 04 when the slides are in and the wife and I both felt that our endeavor had more room when expanded.

Wow!! After taking a look at new furniture , it might be cheaper to buy a new coach !!! Haha
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Old 05-13-2015, 09:55 AM   #77
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I've talked to Newmar customer service 3 times and the wife called them once about a long list of issues. They refuse to act on any of them. No compromise. Too bad, so sad. Lesson learned. No more Newmar for me. I know of two new coach sales they lost over this so far. It would have cost them little to nothing to at least take care of a couple things.
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Old 05-13-2015, 10:32 AM   #78
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Until consumers stop buying coaches with problems that seem to be accepted by the builders they will keep building them that way. I understand there is always a potential for problems but shoddiness during assembly, etc. should not be acceptable. If an employee can't do it correctly find one who will.
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Old 05-13-2015, 10:51 AM   #79
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We bought a new Winnie Adventurer 3 years ago and have no quality complaints!!

I also have a 2011 Winnebago Journey Express and have no quality complaints.
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Old 05-13-2015, 11:45 AM   #80
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I've talked to Newmar customer service 3 times and the wife called them once about a long list of issues. They refuse to act on any of them. No compromise. Too bad, so sad. Lesson learned. No more Newmar for me. I know of two new coach sales they lost over this so far. It would have cost them little to nothing to at least take care of a couple things.
Rodz, I remember when you first got your Newmar you loved it, and you shared on many previous threads, about how much you liked it. You were also one of the ones in the diesel vs gas, that said after buying your Newmar, you loved the ride/performance and wouldn't go back to a diesel. Now you've had a few problems which some seem minor and could easily be fixed by yourself if you chose to, you seem to be on a rant to run Newmar into the ground. Not that you should have to fix things yourself, but some things are just better done by yourself, so you get the quality you want. What could have changed so much.

One example you mention is the sawdust/woodchips ect. that may appear from time to time. It's new, they can't get everything, our dealer told us that may happen and to take it home and run all the systems again and over time we would get it all out. We did that, cleaned under the slide ect. and have not had problems since. Yes we have had to adjust some storage bay door latches, one because it kept opening. No big deal, it took me 5 minutes to adjust and hasn't come open since. Some things are just going to vibrate out of adjustment, no matter who built the MH.

You keep saying Newmar will not call you back, could it be your approach and maybe how much you are complaining about. We have always had great response and help from Newmar Customer service, and they have always returned our calls. Nothing is perfect, we have yet to buy a house, car, boat, MH that was perfect or didn't need some adjustments, that's just life. But I will tell you we absolutely love our Newmar , we have had very few minor issues with it, and if we were ever to buy another MH it would be a Newmar.

I also find it interesting that you have the Winnebago logo on your profile, I suppose that is a silent protest of Newmar, but if I was that unhappy with my MH I would sell it no matter what I lost in money, and buy one that made me happy to use rather than get me upset evertime I use it. But that's just me.
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Old 05-13-2015, 05:03 PM   #81
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Rodz, I remember when you first got your Newmar you loved it, and you shared on many previous threads, about how much you liked it. You were also one of the ones in the diesel vs gas, that said after buying your Newmar, you loved the ride/performance and wouldn't go back to a diesel. Now you've had a few problems which some seem minor and could easily be fixed by yourself if you chose to, you seem to be on a rant to run Newmar into the ground. Not that you should have to fix things yourself, but some things are just better done by yourself, so you get the quality you want. What could have changed so much.

One example you mention is the sawdust/woodchips ect. that may appear from time to time. It's new, they can't get everything, our dealer told us that may happen and to take it home and run all the systems again and over time we would get it all out. We did that, cleaned under the slide ect. and have not had problems since. Yes we have had to adjust some storage bay door latches, one because it kept opening. No big deal, it took me 5 minutes to adjust and hasn't come open since. Some things are just going to vibrate out of adjustment, no matter who built the MH.

You keep saying Newmar will not call you back, could it be your approach and maybe how much you are complaining about. We have always had great response and help from Newmar Customer service, and they have always returned our calls. Nothing is perfect, we have yet to buy a house, car, boat, MH that was perfect or didn't need some adjustments, that's just life. But I will tell you we absolutely love our Newmar , we have had very few minor issues with it, and if we were ever to buy another MH it would be a Newmar.

I also find it interesting that you have the Winnebago logo on your profile, I suppose that is a silent protest of Newmar, but if I was that unhappy with my MH I would sell it no matter what I lost in money, and buy one that made me happy to use rather than get me upset evertime I use it. But that's just me.
My wife and I both were very respectful when we talked to C.S. We weren't demanding. Just asking questions about things that we kept finding. I think the ride and handling is very good and it has plenty of power. My main gripe is that C.S. just don't care and will do nothing about anything. They won't even acknowledge that there might be a problem with even one of my complaints. They have an excuse for everything. I'll take a loss but I got educated.
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Old 05-14-2015, 01:17 AM   #82
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I love the company and love the coach. C.S. has always treated me very well. Would love to see your pickup list. I've purchased 2 out of 3 motorhomes new and have always done some of my own warranty work. It's just easier. I agree with Mike. Talk about sawdust, I still get bits of it every trip.
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Old 05-14-2015, 07:39 AM   #83
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You can still find RV Craftsmen.......they work at Newell, Marathon, etc...

The management team determines the level of fit and finish that is acceptable or the workman is fired. There are no unions in RV manufacture that I am aware of. The management has the responsibility for the output of the operation, they do the hiring and the firing. They decide what cost they are willing to bear for the margin they see in the market place. No workman I've ever met decided that, for sure.

If you think a company treats its employees any better than they treat their customers you are kidding yourself.

People buy this stuff because they are, mostly, indiscriminate and don't know the difference between quality and glitz.
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Old 05-14-2015, 12:34 PM   #84
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Imagine this scenario:

Now's the time of the year that numerous RV/motorhome manufacturers are unveiling its 2016 lineup. What would happen if an existing motorhome manufacturer decided, that instead of doing the same they've done in previous years and introducing new paint schemes, a few more bells and whistles and upping the price on new models a bit, instead they released this press release:

PRESS RELEASE
Summer 2015
From Your Favorite RV Manufacturer

For the launch of our 2016 models, we are doing something completely different that what we and other manufacturers have done in the past. Yes, we have a few inline changes that owners have been asking for, but our biggest change is something that you won't see at your dealer's showroom.

The highest level of quality control in the industry.

For 2016, every new model that rolls off our line will be inspected, not once, not twice, but three times. Each inspection will be conducted by a different person who his skilled in a specific area. If we find an issue that is not working correctly or one that could be problematic in the future, you have our pledge that we will not deliver your new coach to the dealer until these initial bugs have been identified, fixed and placed in a condition where we would feel comfortable taking our own children on a long trip...the type of trip that our models are designed to endure.

While we know with all of the components in todays motorhomes it can be difficult to identify every bug at the factory, we've instituted another program that we feel will allow us to deliver the highest quality products in the industry. I'll say upfront, that some may not like one element of our new direction as we are eliminating a popular feature: Factory Delivery. Instead, we will be closing our production lines to the public and using the touring space as an area where we can pull a coach off the line that may have not been assembled correctly and fixing it before it moves to the next station. We will keep our design center open for those who desire to customize their new coach.

Another change is when a motorhome is leaving our factory and headed to the dealer, we will have two people onboard of your new RV. One will be the driver and another will be a tech who's job it will be to identify and repair the items we may have missed at the factory. If something cannot be repaired while en route, you will have the confidence it will be repaired at the dealer with the supervision of our tech prior to you seeing your new coach for the first time. No longer will you feel the need to walk through your coach at the dealership and create a punch list to be fixed later. Our goal is to get it right the first time and to do our best to deliver a quality product that you can start enjoying the moment you take ownership. Our tech will be on hand when you accept delivery at your dealer and will take the time to walk you through your new motorhome and demonstrate proper operations.

While our goal is delivering to you a coach with zero defects, we feel this will accomplish yet another goal and that's freeing up the dealer's service center from repairing the initial bugs and be able to focus on providing service when needed and get our customers in and out in a timely manner. Whether you purchased our brand at a specific dealer or need service while traveling, our goal is to provide the best and quickest service in the industry at any franchised dealer in our extensive network and get it right the first time.

Allow me to say upfront, this is not an inexpensive task for us, but we feel that we are in this together and while we are absorbing the lion's share of this costs, we will be increasing the cost of our 2016 models by 1% to assist us in hiring and training new personnel that will in turn allow us to not only deliver the highest quality products on the market, but make sure that when you accept delivery, your new coach will be as bug free as humanly possible and you can spend your time enjoying your new motorhome and not spend your valuable time waiting in line to get service at a dealer. We've weathered a severe financial storm in the past and now we are taking a share of our newly gained profits and investing them in new methods that will allow us to deliver the best product on the market.

We'll admit that we have taken advantage of a robust market and we are operating at capacity and have made mistakes in putting quantity over quality. THIS CHANGES NOW. We fully understand that at some point the market will pull back and we hope that you had such a wonderful experience with your 2016 model, that when it's time to upgrade, you'll again consider us for your future purchase.

Happy Trails,

The Management of your favorite motorhome company


Yes, this is a fantasy. But if a motorhome company really took this tact, wouldn't you be considering this company when it's time to purchase a new coach?
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