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Old 09-03-2014, 09:31 PM   #43
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Hello Everybody...

In my quest for a nice coach in which to eventually go full-time in, I have looked at both older, very nice higher end models and new models that, if upgraded with more "goodies" would be comparable to the older models as far as price goes. Both are DPs.

In other words, the older higher end models are in the $170k range, generally built in the mid-2000s and in the 42' to 45' range and are all pretty much loaded while the new models are in the $140k, 35' range but if I put $30,000 more into them I would have a new coach with just about all the same features, electronics, etc.

Just curious your thoughts on which way you would go and why.

Thanks!
I think there have been some very good information provided and I would like to look at it from another angle.

If you start with the premise of the used coach at $170k cost near $400k cost (400/.70=$571 new msrp) new, that is about $230k of depreciation. If you buy used and lose 10-12% per year, that is about $17k-$20k per year of depreciation. I highly doubt from my own experience of purchasing 2 used American Eagles (1999 bought in 2001 and a 2009 bought in 2012) that you will incur this type of depreciation if you purchase at fair price. The new unit will depreciate about $25k each year on the above assumptions on a 9 year coach.

Sales Tax at 7% on new at $400k is $28k, on the used at $170 it is $2k, that is $26k in sales tax savings and if you have to pay personal property tax that is another factor you must factor in.

So in my assumptions above you save about $5-8k per year in depreciation, about $26k in sales tax, plus the savings of personal property tax if you must pay it. That is in excess of $30k in year 1 in direct cost plus the $230k in acquisition cost, so figure your lost of use of $230k.

If money is no object (I wish that was the case for me because I would have a Prevost) than these points make no difference, but if you need to pay attention in the slightest there is some (relative to each persons financial circumstances) logic to this point.

I have not spent anywhere near the depreciation savings in my example per year for maintenance and repairs on my first coach that I owned for 11 years. I paid $160k with a 4 year extended warranty for a 2 year old American Eagle in 2001. It depreciated to about $80-85k in the 11 years.

But I would carefully consider the real quality of the units you are comparing. I would also argue the average RV has about 7,500-10,000 miles per year put on it in my experiences, an over the road trucker would go broke putting 30k miles on his rig. An over the road truck is not built on the same chassis as most RV's. Compare the GVW of the chassis on a motorhome as they will not all be built on the same chassis. Over the road truck chassis is on a minimum of 80k lb chassis.

I do not know all the in and outs, but a RV built on a 40k lbs GVW can't be built the same as a 60k lbs chassis in my opinion.

You must do what suits your needs and your financial condition, but you are doing the right thing is soliciting as much information as possible to make an informed decision based on your circumstances, I wish you luck in pursuing your dream. What is good for me and my logic may not fit yours, so keep attaining knowledge to make the best decision for you!
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Old 09-04-2014, 07:38 AM   #44
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Here is another vote for the high-end older choice. We bought our coach in 2012 (12 years old with 32,000 miles) for $56K. What we got is a fantastic well cared for but hardly used coach. The semi-monocoque structure used in the higher end Monaco's (Windsor, Dynasty, Sig, Exec) is incredibly tight and stable. All of the systems are top of the line and provide very high a level of comfort, enjoyment and satisfaction when you don't have to worry about things working. I'm not saying that everything is perfect all of the time, but as was mentioned early on in the thread, if you are a person that likes to dig into the workings of the coach and do your own light maintenance and upgrades you will have a first class experience with no bank debt (we refuse to buy what we can't pay for, especially with retirement coming soon).

Bottom line for us, we have put over 14K miles on the coach and traveled to both coasts and are traveling somewhere different almost every week. No major problems that have ever hampered our travels (other than the darn Norcold that is now history). We wouldn't want a new coach if we could trade even up. Just our experience, the decision is really personal preference.
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Old 09-04-2014, 07:41 AM   #45
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High end ...older, better built
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Old 09-04-2014, 09:35 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeryan59 View Post
I think there have been some very good information provided and I would like to look at it from another angle.

If you start with the premise of the used coach at $170k cost near $400k cost (400/.70=$571 new msrp) new, that is about $230k of depreciation. If you buy used and lose 10-12% per year, that is about $17k-$20k per year of depreciation. I highly doubt from my own experience of purchasing 2 used American Eagles (1999 bought in 2001 and a 2009 bought in 2012) that you will incur this type of depreciation if you purchase at fair price. The new unit will depreciate about $25k each year on the above assumptions on a 9 year coach.

Sales Tax at 7% on new at $400k is $28k, on the used at $170 it is $12k, that is $16k in sales tax savings and if you have to pay personal property tax that is another factor you must factor in.

So in my assumptions above you save about $5-8k per year in depreciation, about $16k in sales tax, plus the savings of personal property tax if you must pay it. That is in excess of $20k in year 1 in direct cost plus the $230k in acquisition cost, so figure your lost of use of $230k.

If money is no object (I wish that was the case for me because I would have a Prevost) than these points make no difference, but if you need to pay attention in the slightest there is some (relative to each persons financial circumstances) logic to this point.

I have not spent anywhere near the depreciation savings in my example per year for maintenance and repairs on my first coach that I owned for 11 years. I paid $160k with a 4 year extended warranty for a 2 year old American Eagle in 2001. It depreciated to about $80-85k in the 11 years.

But I would carefully consider the real quality of the units you are comparing. I would also argue the average RV has about 7,500-10,000 miles per year put on it in my experiences, an over the road trucker would go broke putting 30k miles on his rig. An over the road truck is not built on the same chassis as most RV's. Compare the GVW of the chassis on a motorhome as they will not all be built on the same chassis. Over the road truck chassis is on a minimum of 80k lb chassis.

I do not know all the in and outs, but a RV built on a 40k lbs GVW can't be built the same as a 60k lbs chassis in my opinion.

You must do what suits your needs and your financial condition, but you are doing the right thing is soliciting as much information as possible to make an informed decision based on your circumstances, I wish you luck in pursuing your dream. What is good for me and my logic may not fit yours, so keep attaining knowledge to make the best decision for you!
I fat fingered the numbers, hopefully they are corrected now! Sorry!
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Old 09-04-2014, 09:47 AM   #47
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Though my coach is not in the same "range" as what you are looking at, I could never have afforded it at the "new" price. And bonus, most of the grimlins were worked out by the previous owner. I agree you may have a bit higher maintanance costs, but it will take a lot of things to bring the cost of ownership to the price of a new rig. Another bonus, when your rig is 20 years old you can join the vintage rig thread!
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:35 PM   #48
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Great thread, lots of good, honest info.

Regarding the EPA changes for diesel: that went into effect for 2007? So 2006 models are pre-that?
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Old 09-04-2014, 04:02 PM   #49
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We found that we could buy a brand new well equipped gas unit for the same price or less than a 10 year old diesel. Seems like this discussion is missing something. The new Ford v10s are pretty good for the money, and a heck of alot cheaper and easier to maintain.
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Old 09-04-2014, 04:46 PM   #50
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We found that we could buy a brand new well equipped gas unit for the same price or less than a 10 year old diesel. Seems like this discussion is missing something. The new Ford v10s are pretty good for the money, and a heck of alot cheaper and easier to maintain.
No right or wrong, just choices to be made! But I suspect that a 10 year old well cared for coach will be worth more in five years then a new gas powered coach bought today. The chassis will still be better than the F53. And, the higher quality of coach build and cabinets will still be of higher quality then the new coach of today. Quality lasts, within reason, and yes with maintenance.

The other factor is the safety edge and enjoyment factor of a high end DP over this 5 year period. On that that end, as improved as the newer F53 chassis is - still not contest with a high end DP coach chassis.

That's my opinion, and how I shopped when we bought. But I know many happy owners of say the F53 or Workhorse chassis in entry to mid level coaches. And that is what makes a good RV industry. Someone has to buy new, heck, even 5th wheelers too!

And to be clear, not knocking gas RV's at all. I looked real carefully at the UFO chassis, as we thought we might get a 'bridge' coach to cover the time until we actually retired. After doing the numbers on the depreciation, I went with the 'buy you last coach first approach'... (And good timing for us, we stayed in budget and got much more coach then we had expected. Due to others having to get out from under... we were lucky in this cycle.)

Best,
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Old 09-04-2014, 05:07 PM   #51
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Taking the commonly argued diesel advantages aside for a minute, let's consider what "brand new" means? To me, it's a pretty much forced opportunity to have to deal with a dealership. That in itself is a huge downside here. The frustrations involved with just that fact alone are something I strive to avoid. Then there's the idea I paid top dollar for a coach I would expect to be 100% right - vs. a coach that's been purchased at a huge discount (as compared to "new" price). That discount in mind, I don't mind taking care of a few issues on my dime at that point?

Then, brand new = HUGE depreciation. When considering bucks spent for bang received, I don't even have to go there.

Brand new is just a headache here. Not something I strive for.
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Old 09-05-2014, 08:34 AM   #52
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Moreover. Not all MH depreciate ate the same rate. As an extreme example, the average asking price for a used Prevost of any age older than 1995 was $88k vs say a Dynasty is ~$50k. Spend $200k to start and you gain $40k off the top. As Southpark says raised rail , semi monocoque, monocoque in that ascending order.
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Old 09-05-2014, 11:51 AM   #53
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The new smell is tempting but expensive. We purchased a 2005 Tiffen Phaeton at a very fair price. Only 42K miles and 130 hrs on the gen. Added rear tires (front were new) and some other minor maintenance. The only thing we don't like is the rv fridge and a bit of a cramped BR. Preparing to upgrade to LED lights. add an outside TV and a few other tweaks. Much cheaper than the $250K+ they are new and, I'm guessing, made a bit better.
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Old 09-05-2014, 11:59 AM   #54
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X2 Agree 100%


I have been around RV for a little while. I have always disliked the ratio of Quality Vs Money spent.
After talking to the guys that do the service work at A large local RV dealership I have seen (and heard) of how they are really built.
What they tell me confirms what I have always believed the older the better.
The biggest item in stalled in the newest units seems to be PROFIT.
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Old 09-05-2014, 01:45 PM   #55
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Great thread, lots of good, honest info.

Regarding the EPA changes for diesel: that went into effect for 2007? So 2006 models are pre-that?
You have to look at the engine. I'm pretty sure there were 2008 coaches built with pre-2007 rules engines, for example. In other words, it appears you can put an engine made before the rules changes in a chassis/coach built after the changes.

I think the giveaway with Cummins engines, for example, is that the post-2007 engines have 50 more horsepower. For example, the ISL went from 400 to 450, and the ISX from 600 to 650. Though those are common RV industry numbers. I'm pretty sure the ISX, for example, has been rated at various horsepower numbers.

Here's what I believe is a history of changes for the ISX. Pre 2002 rules the ISX did not have exhaust gas recirculation. In 2002 an EGR valve was introduced. In the 2008, post-2007 EPA rules, the ISX added a DPF filter (diesel particulate filter). The 2010 EPA rules version of the engine added DEF (diesel exhaust fluid (which is water and urea)).

There have been mechanical and fuel system changes to the engine over the years as well.

Many truckers believe the more complex systems lead to lower reliability and greater repair expense, as well as reduced fuel mileage. Some argue extensive reduction in mileage. Which, of course, probably leads to more pollution as more fuel needs to be burned. I wonder to what extent this obviates the benefits of the new systems? If you go to OTR trucker forums you'll find people disconnecting their EGR valves even on pre-2007 engines (but post 2002) and reprogramming the ECM in an attempt to get better fuel efficiency.

Hope this helps.
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