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Old 10-02-2011, 06:52 AM   #15
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Having seen a few MCs getting repaired for this same problems , the repairs averaged $25K , done by the dealer ...
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Old 10-02-2011, 08:08 AM   #16
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Having seen a few MCs getting repaired for this same problems , the repairs averaged $25K , done by the dealer ...
I guess I would be shocked at the repair costing that much. Materials for the roof are $1K - we've priced out a new shower and it's also about $1K in materials...there's labor to dismantle and remove the old roof - the roof is estimated on a post I saw as a 50+ person-hours job - ( EPDM RV Roof Replacement Project) and the interior couldn't take more than the same...even at worst case of $100/hr that's $12K...and we believe the labor for the roof anyway will be absorbed by the selling dealer. We know a great carpenter but are really wanting motor home folks to fix it...we will see. thank you for the comments...
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Old 10-02-2011, 08:20 AM   #17
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The key is likely any written promise by the dealer that there was no water damage. If you have this kind of statement in writing that can be documented as having come from the dealer then the dealer is likely going to want to make this issue right.
Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
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Old 10-02-2011, 08:42 AM   #18
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Good luck, First Poet. I feel your pain. Good advice from MMPE. We are going through similar situation but with cracked manifold exhaust and two other mechanical issues. Extended warranty (GS) denied claim saying these were "pre-existing" and dealer (CW) says bought "as is" and their checklist says all items ok.
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Old 10-02-2011, 09:13 AM   #19
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I really appreciate each of your replies! This situation is unfortunate for both us and the dealer. We do not think they purposely mislead us - we think this got through their screening based on some sequence of events...still they stated this situation of water leaks and damage specifically did not exist so we feel/believe and hope that they will help us to get things fixed. I'm certain that we will need to negotiate how this get's addressed and I plan to keep that in good spirit...arguing will not accomplish a positive end. I think we have 'right' on our side, and even potentially consumer-law based on the information that was stated prior to the purchase. I have not elevated it to that level as we are working with the dealer to gain a resolution. They just got it back so we await a call as to what they think. They knew and it was obvious on the Service Manager's face that things were not going to be 'simple'...but we have plans to do upgrades, they can work with us on this, and we will work with them on that - again - that 'faith' thing in humans that we'll be able to come to an amenable resolution for all parties involved. Life is the journey, not any single point...again - thanks for all your comments!
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Old 10-02-2011, 09:52 AM   #20
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I feel your frustration. It is an unfortunate situation. One issue will be the wood framing. If it has been wet for any length of time it will have dry rot. If this is the case then you will have to look at how the walls were constructed. A service center will have to take the wall apart and replace the bad wood and then rebuild. This is expensive! The fact that you think the dealer may absorb the labor cost is unrealistic. Yes, he is paying the service people but on the other hand if they are working on your rig they are not working on someone else's rig. This is taking actual money out of the pocket of the service center. A new roof with remove and replace is over $5,000. Wall repair can start at about $10,000 and go way up. There isn't that much dealer profit to cover these costs in a 14 year old coach. I have to agree with others about your responsibility to inspect the coach before purchase. If you are knowledgeable then you should have brought a knowledgeable person with you or hires an inspector. It is an unfortunate situation but you will be lucky to get any significant price break from the dealer on the repairs and it will still leave you holding the bag for the remainder. The only real hope you have is if the wood is still good you can just have the leaks sealed up and nothing else done. Good luck!
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Old 10-02-2011, 10:10 AM   #21
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You need to consult a lawyer to go over the documents and pre-sale correspondence and help you understand what your rights are. This does not mean hire a lawyer to sue, but to know where you stand. There are lots of pretend lawyers around, but commercial law is pretty specific on this sort of thing.

Your best bet is to get to the dealer and ask for his/her help and see what the reaction is. This won't be cheap to fix, probably in the order of $10,000, at the dealer's cost you are probably looking at $6,000.

BTW - extended warranties almost all exclude leaks. It is considered your responsibility to examine the coach on a regular basis and find and fix them before they do this kind of damage.
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Old 10-02-2011, 10:46 AM   #22
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Should be said we bought the coach sight-unseen, and asked specfic questions including about water damage and were told there was not any - this was written (email) correspondence.
Hope you keep that email.
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Old 10-02-2011, 12:25 PM   #23
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"As-is, where is" clearly states the Seller has no responsibility for after sale occurrences. But, by UCC, that does not always absolve the Seller of liability.

You have documented the Seller's statement there were no leaks, which is an express warranty. This alone can and often does prevail in litigation.

Another aspect is when a Seller responds favorably to a Buyer's question regarding 'suitability for the intended purpose'. There is no question regarding the intended purpose of a motorhome, trailer, tent or bath tub.

In short, should push come to shove, there may be recourse and, as a side benefit in matters such as this, the theory of "Deep pockets" very often prevails.

However, as can be expected, an amenable solution to this, or any other problem, will render the above meaningless.

Rule of thumb: speak nicely but document, document, document.

The ball's in their court and if they satisfy you, there is no need to seek another.

Good luck with this and learn from it.
Looked on line and found this link to the UCC and references to 'express' and 'implied' warranties... here's the link and a few excerpts below that - it's best if we are able to come to an agreement...and we believe right now that the dealer will work with us. we'll let you all know -

Commercial Law: Express and Implied Warranties Under the Uniform Commercial Code

"Express warranties are affirmative promises about the quality and features of the goods being sold. Claiming a watch is "waterproof to 250 feet," that a car gets "35 mpg on the highway," or that a brand of concrete "cures rock-hard in 5 minutes, no matter what the weather" are all examples of express warranties."

"an implied warranty is made, regardless of whether or not it is specifically mentioned. The implied warranties created by the U.C.C. ended the old rule of caveat emptor-"Let the buyer beware." Implied warranties allows buyers to purchase goods and be confident that they meet certain minimum standards. The two implied warranties the U.C.C. creates are the warranty of "merchantability" of the goods being sold, and the warranty that the goods are "fit for a particular purpose.""

"Under the U.C.C.'s definition of "merchantability," goods must be at least of average quality, properly packaged and labeled, and fit for the ordinary purposes they are intended to serve."

"The implied warranty of fitness for a particular purpose applies if the seller knows or has reason to know that the buyer will be using the goods he is buying for a certain purpose. If the seller knows the purpose for which the goods are to be used, the seller impliedly warrants that the goods being sold are suitable for that specific purpose."

"Generally, a seller who wants to disclaim U.C.C. warranties must do so specifically. A general statement that there are "no warranties, express or implied" is usually ineffective. Just how express a disclaimer needs to be depends on the kind of warranty being disclaimed. An express warranty must be expressly disclaimed. A disclaimer that disclaims the implied warranty of merchantability must specifically mention "merchantability" in the disclaimer. Finally, a seller may disclaim all implied warranties by stating that the good is being sold "as is," "with all faults," or by stating some other phrase that makes it plain to the buyer there are no implied warranties."

"But there are outer limits to what even the best-drafted disclaimer of warranties can accomplish. Just as a disclaimer that is too broad will not be enforced, neither will a disclaimer that takes all rights away from the buyer. Unless all warranties have been effectively disclaimed, a buyer usually must have some meaningful remedy if the goods he receives are defective. Additionally, most states have consumer protection statutes for transactions involving the purchase of consumer goods. These statutes often provide the buyer with remedies other than those provided by the U.C.C., and also often provide that a consumer's rights under the statute cannot be abridged by means of a disclaimer."
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Old 10-02-2011, 02:16 PM   #24
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Not to offend anyone, but to my point of lots of pretend lawyers out there, we are getting lots of advice here.

I am in investment banking, and I read and write a lot of contracts. Having said that, I usually point out to people that I just play a lawyer on cable access (not even network tv), and I have real lawyers that work for me. Free advice is usually not good advice, except when it tells you to get a qualified opinion.

In our business, the language of many contracts is opaque to the point of being unreadable, but it has been litigated to death, so we don't dare change a comma because as it reads, everyone knows what it means. The UCC is no different, you need to know how the courts interpret and apply it, not just what it says.

Very often we encounter people talking about how unfair a decision was, but it almost always comes down to not understanding how things actually work.

Get a qualified opinion so you know where you stand. By the way, a person who does something because "their lawyer told them to" is a fool. Your lawyer is there to explain the real rules and the likely outcomes, it is up to you to decide how to proceed. A good lawyer will ask some questions, look at the documents you have, probably not be too interested in a lot of what you say (remember the lawyer knows what is significant legally which is often not what you will think is important), and then tell you what your options are. That should not cost more than $350 in most cities as it should not take more than an hour because it doesn't require a senior litigator to walk you through something like this.

Good luck.
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Old 10-03-2011, 02:29 AM   #25
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Excellent (free) advice by Paul. Well worth it...

You probably should consider consulting a real attorney who handles these type of cases. Unfortunately, much more than a consultation and maybe a couple letters written for you would generally be about it. Regardless of how "right" you feel you are, pursuing legal action would undoubtedly cost more (with NO guarantees) than the old coach is worth.

Gut feeling, you've had a lot of folks here tell you that you probably don't have a case, merely based on years of experience and many RV purchases.

I'm guessing there wasn't a ton of profit in the deal for the seller, meaning how much in the red do they want to go? The dealer does this every day. They probably know what their realistic limit of liability is on this. They probably have an attorney well versed in these cases. You're playing in their court, with their ball and you got in the game without really learning the rules. I realize that's not what you want to hear, but I will be very surprised if the dealer simply fixes everything properly at no or little cost to you.

Talk to a good attorney...
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Old 10-03-2011, 05:12 AM   #26
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Sorry for your troubles, and talking about what you should or should not have done before the purchase is a moot point now. So going forward you need to get with the owner/general manager of the dealer and point blank ask them are they going to fix your coach in a timely fashion ( they know what is wrong with it already). If they are not going to repair it for you which I doubt they will, then seek PAIDED advice from a lawer., then weigh you options. But keep this in mind not to many dealers are around long selling 14 year old used M/H's and the doing free warrenty repairs on them.
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Old 10-03-2011, 05:34 AM   #27
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Sorry for your troubles, and talking about what you should or should not have done before the purchase is a moot point now. So going forward you need to get with the owner/general manager of the dealer and point blank ask them are they going to fix your coach in a timely fashion ( they know what is wrong with it already). If they are not going to repair it for you which I doubt they will, then seek PAIDED advice from a lawer., then weigh you options. But keep this in mind not to many dealers are around long selling 14 year old used M/H's and the doing free warrenty repairs on them.
Thanks all of you so much...it's all speculation till we hear from them. Good news is they requested we bring it back and said they'd address it so if they fix the leak, as I've written, that's a 'good start'. I do think we'll have to pay some, just hopefully not all of the cost. And, they have the motor-home back now on their lot. I've got a lot but no where near the purchase price invested with only 2 payments and the down-payment having been made, we were timely in our contact back to them, they said in writing it had no leaks and no damage, so we'll see. I agree that no dealers would 'stay alive' doing warranty work for free on older motor homes but I'd also submit that they wouldn't stay alive very long misrepresenting what they sell to the general population. There are no complaints on line for this dealer that's been in business a long time and does 'big' business on real high-end and obviously low-end coaches - so we'll see. We are hopeful they'll do something and as well that we don't have to seek an attorney...if we do then we'll let you all know...thanks again!
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Old 10-03-2011, 06:48 PM   #28
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Good luck, hopefully your dealer will help take care of your issues.
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