New to class B, looking at the Coachmen Galleria Li3

[Idleup]

Originally Posted by Neutron

The cost of the LI3 Battery, The 2nd Alternator, and the upgraded Inverter and BMS is a lot higher than the propane generator. I have the generator on my 2019 Galleria and it is awful. It smells, it is loud, and it is the most inefficient fuel to burn for power production. The problem is that there are no good generator solutions for a sprinter that allow ground clearance and have a decent power rating. The Onan is only 2400 watts and it is the largest propane you can fit under a sprinter. When you charge the standard AGM batteries and run the AC at the same time you are borderline on the max output and the breaker trips. To run the AC when driving you must run the generator. I did a test and I ran the generator with a full tank of propane with the ac off and it lasted 7 hours with virtually no load. That will never happen with a 600 amp hour Lifepo4 battery. I get about 8 hours on a really hot day on the battery, but with the cooler weather the solar keeps it charged under normal usage. I worked in the van about 12 hours today and went from 98% to 94% (no AC). With the second alternator I can run the AC in the back when driving and not even tax the battery. Mercedes also designed their vehicles for long idle periods and all of the special packages have the parametric modules for things like extra ac compressors and alternators for box trucks and the like. There is absolutely no need for a generator anymore and very few trips to the propane station, I still use the propane for a grill and heat.

Regretfully, you've chosen to avoid all my comments regarding the dis-advantages to your engine and safety issues with running a "Turbo" diesel engine loaded with emissions and Cat converter.

This goofy option causes much more soot and carbon buildup in the Cat and permanently on your turbo from the engine at idle. Also there is a possibility the system which may Regen and create a un safe situation, in some cases totally un-attended! I suggest that you re-read my last post.

You also left off the important point that now Coachman is deleting the propane generator, yet not offering any credit to the buyer towards the lithium feature.

Your comments that none of these Sprinters can use a larger diesel generator because of ground clearance is not correct. The 4x4 model has ample clearance. When you consider Coachman's unbelievable over-priced battery upgrade for their lithium, you could buy a Type B with 4x4 and a diesel generator. I included an image of my 4x4 to show the ground clearance.

Lastly, your comments of running your AC while driving down the road has been addressed many years ago by an AC system called ProAir. Many coach manufactures such as Midwest offers a cost effective ProAir AC system option which has many times more BTU than the Coachman (60,000 & 22,000 btu units) which are powered off the engine as you drive making the system much more efficient than Coachman's option using the small roof top unit.

Regards Mike

[KanzKran]

Originally Posted by Neutron

I have the generator on my 2019 Galleria and it is awful. It smells, it is loud, and it is the most inefficient fuel to burn for power production.

That's one of the reasons I'm considering the Coachmen Crossfit, which has a gasoline generator. Presumably fueled from the same tank as the small gasoline coach engine. Though that alone isn't enough to tip the balance against the Galleria or other 24 foot Sprinter based units. I'm debating it with myself at least, but a gasoline gen on a gasoline chassis, or diesel gen on a diesel chassis, makes the most sense to me if you're going to use it a lot. Which I'm not so sure I would for how we intend to use it.

I don't know enough about the generatorless units to have an opinion, but I'm watching that, too.

[Idleup]

Originally Posted by KanzKran

That's one of the reasons I'm considering the Coachmen Crossfit, which has a gasoline generator. Presumably fueled from the same tank as the small gasoline coach engine. Though that alone isn't enough to tip the balance against the Galleria or other 24 foot Sprinter based units. I'm debating it with myself at least, but a gasoline gen on a gasoline chassis, or diesel gen on a diesel chassis, makes the most sense to me if you're going to use it a lot. Which I'm not so sure I would for how we intend to use it.

I don't know enough about the generatorless units to have an opinion, but I'm watching that, too.

Nothing at all wrong with a gas powered RV there is hundreds of thousands of them and unlike a diesel van you have unlimited use of the gas generator which feeds off the main tank.

Presently, there is no advantage to a diesel power in these vans because its actually more economical to run a Ford V-10 than a V-6 Diesel because of the fuel cost.

In addition, the E-450 V-10 chassis has considerably more power and a heavier chassis and the best part its $20,000 less money than the Mercedes in some cases.

Regards - Mike

[B-RV]

[QUOTE=Idleup;4616492]Regretfully, you've chosen to avoid all my comments regarding the dis-advantages to your engine and safety issues with running a "Turbo" diesel engine loaded with emissions and Cat converter.

This goofy option causes much more soot and carbon buildup in the Cat and permanently on your turbo from the engine at idle. Also there is a possibility the system which may Regen and create a un safe situation, in some cases totally un-attended! I suggest that you re-read my last post. MAYBE LEARN A BIT YOURSELF, THE MERCEDES DIESEL SPRINTER WILL NOT REGEN WHILE IN PARK.

You also left off the important point that now Coachman is deleting the propane generator, yet not offering any credit to the buyer towards the lithium feature. THE PRICE OF THE Li3 ELECTRONICS PACKAGE HAS BEEN DEDUCTED FROM THE COST. PRETTY SIMPLE. THE COST OF THE CHEAP ONAN HAS BEEN DEDUCTED, THEN A PRICE FOR THE Li3 PCK. HAS BEEN SET.

Your comments that none of these Sprinters can use a larger diesel generator because of ground clearance is not correct. The 4x4 model has ample clearance. When you consider Coachman's unbelievable over-priced battery upgrade for their lithium, you could buy a Type B with 4x4 and a diesel generator. I included an image of my 4x4 to show the ground clearance. PLEASE SHARE A PICTURE OF A ONAN THAT WOULD FIT UNDER THE SPRINTER. THERE IS NOT ONE. STILL DOES NOTHING FOR THE NOISE AS WELL AS HAVING ANOTHER ENGINE TO MAINTAIN.

Lastly, your comments of running your AC while driving down the road has been addressed many years ago by an AC system called ProAir. Many coach manufactures such as Midwest offers a cost effective ProAir AC system option which has many times more BTU than the Coachman (60,000 & 22,000 btu units) which are powered off the engine as you drive making the system much more efficient than Coachman's option using the small roof top unit.
WHAT A LOUSY PLACE TO INSTALL A GEN. HAVE YOU EVER DRIVEN IN THE MIDWEST OR EAST COAST DURING THE WINTER MONTHS? THE SALTY SLUSH AND SNOW CAN'T HELP BUT DESTROY THE UNIT. TALK ABOUT NOISE? I SHOPPED THE MIDWEST TOO, VERY NOISY INSIDE THE RV WITH A BOTTOM MOUNTED GEN.
SOUNDS LIKE YOU LIKE THE IDEA OF DRIVING DOWN THE ROAD WITHOUT A NOISY GEN, ME TOO. I LOVE THE IDEA OF PARKING IN A SCERENE AREA WITH NO LOUD SMELLY GENERATOR RUNNING.
AT ONE TIME PEOPLE HATED THE IDEA OF A CONVECTION OVEN REPLACING THE LP STOVE, TOOK A WHILE BUT PEOPLE CAUGHT ON, SAME THING WILL HAPPEN WITH QUALITY LITHIUM RV'S.

[Ceci]

Originally Posted by Neutron

The cost of the LI3 Battery, The 2nd Alternator, and the upgraded Inverter and BMS is a lot higher than the propane generator. I have the generator on my 2019 Galleria and it is awful. It smells, it is loud, and it is the most inefficient fuel to burn for power production. The problem is that there are no good generator solutions for a sprinter that allow ground clearance and have a decent power rating. The Onan is only 2400 watts and it is the largest propane you can fit under a sprinter. When you charge the standard AGM batteries and run the AC at the same time you are borderline on the max output and the breaker trips. To run the AC when driving you must run the generator. I did a test and I ran the generator with a full tank of propane with the ac off and it lasted 7 hours with virtually no load. That will never happen with a 600 amp hour Lifepo4 battery. I get about 8 hours on a really hot day on the battery, but with the cooler weather the solar keeps it charged under normal usage. I worked in the van about 12 hours today and went from 98% to 94% (no AC). With the second alternator I can run the AC in the back when driving and not even tax the battery. Mercedes also designed their vehicles for long idle periods and all of the special packages have the parametric modules for things like extra ac compressors and alternators for box trucks and the like. There is absolutely no need for a generator anymore and very few trips to the propane station, I still use the propane for a grill and heat.

This is the personal test case I was hoping to read. I’ve been watching Humble Road’s van build on YouTube with great interest. He installed 600 amp hour LiPo4 (lithionics i think) and xantrex ...3000 watt inverter too. Lots of solar and a 2nd alternator on the MB 170 chassis. I do not have his skills or the budget to do an outsourced custom build. So watching mainstream manufacturers add these systems has become a slow burn hobby of mine. Maybe one day soon, things will have shaken down a tad more and it’ll be time for me to jump. I’m really excited about all electric builds, but I’d love to see long term reliability just a bit longer.

[Idleup]

B-RV thanks for your reply, regardless of how you twist the facts, Coachman and now yourself have ventured into unknown territory and made a major mistake allowing the Sprinters diesel engine to run for extended periods of time while parked.

While a second alternator is common place with Sprinters, they are designed to operated while the vehicle is moving. I’m sure its just a matter of time when Mercedes gets wind of this goofy generator system, they will issue a stop-notice to manufactures.

Regarding your comments on Regen - you have no idea what the engine will do because you’re forcing it to run in an unconventional manner. First off, the engine is not at idle so the “no regen” while parked might not apply. Secondly, running at high-idle and not moving is not a programmed event, so logical thinking in terms of regen no longer applies. Once the processor determines the Cat is in need of cleaning, it will first attempt to regen, if the parameters are not correct, it will more than likely shut the engine down to avoid damaging the cat converter. With this in mind, I hope nobody is leaving their pets in the coach depending on this to work because the processor will shut the engine down before the cat is damaged.

I would like to remind both yourself and Coachman it is not recommended that any diesel engine operate at idle for any extended period of time. Aside from additional carbon build up on the pistons and valves & guides, there are other problems. The Sprinter uses an exhaust driven turbocharger with “Variable Turbine Geometry” This means the vanes are movable, therefore as carbon builds on the turbo's vanes and mechanics from extended idling, it will lose its ability to properly change pitch. In simple terms, the engine, turbo and cat converter depend on fast moving “Hot” exhaust to help evacuate carbon from the system. This is why vehicles which do a lot of highway driving seldom regen, since the exhaust flow and heat burn it off.

Believe me, your slowly destroying you engine by allowing it to idle for long periods of time. Also, as I mentioned, allowing the engine to run while parked with no incoming air to remove the surrounding heat is cooking all the electronics under the hood. Have you ever walked around your car when stuck in traffic in 100+ degree heat, you can’t even touch the hood its so hot, Your forcing your Sprinter to do this every day, its not a good practice.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the center generator placement on the B vans. The generator is easily serviced from an oil change pit with no more difficulty than changing your oil in the engine. Myself, I would much prefer it to be mounted underneath than have the manufacture cut a hole and stick an ugly hatch on the side of my beautiful van.

I’ve driven many Midwest coaches with ProAir system both the 60,000 and 22,000 BTU systems and found them to be much more quiet than a conventional roof unit or even a dash unit on high. More than likely the fan was on high when you rode in one. Keep in mind, these ProAir units are large and powerful and has 5-6 times the cooling capacity than you do in your Coachman. Regretfully, you should have researched the ProAir systems further, their latest release is a 22,000 BTU system with is light and cools the coach perfectly. You would be a lot better off if your coach had a ProAir than the small cooling system you have now.

Lastly as per your request, here’s an image of my Onan under my Midwest 4x4 coach, plenty of room to even crawl under the generator. Since its not in an enclosed metal box, its its very quiet and cools much better. A diesel generator could easily fit under there. Also when my generator is running, it is barely audible any where in the coach. From the front seat you won’t know its running. Keep in mind unlike a lot of RV companies, Midwest is a custom coach builder, they build a high-end quality limo's and custom vans for the entertainment industry so they offer extra insulation and sound deadening in all their coaches.

Regards - Mike

[B-RV]

Originally Posted by idleup

b-rv thanks for your reply, regardless of how you twist the facts, coachman and now yourself have ventured into unknown territory and made a major mistake allowing the sprinters diesel engine to run for extended periods of time while parked. Roadtrek has been utilizing an underhood gen for 8 years, no diesel engine problems what so ever. Roadtreks problems stem from the poor placement and poor quality of batteries.

While a second alternator is common place with sprinters, they are designed to operated while the vehicle is moving. I’m sure its just a matter of time when mercedes gets wind of this goofy generator system, they will issue a stop-notice to manufactures. Its been approved per mercedes upfit guidelines.

Regarding your comments on regen - you have no idea what the engine will do because you’re forcing it to run in an unconventional manner. First off, the engine is not at idle so the “no regen” while parked might not apply. Check a sprinter manual, it must be in drive and must be going over 15mph
secondly, running at high-idle and not moving is not a programmed event, so logical thinking in terms of regen no longer applies. Once the processor determines the cat is in need of cleaning, it will first attempt to regen, if the parameters are not correct, it will more than likely shut the engine down to avoid damaging the cat converter. In over 8 years this has never happened.
With this in mind, i hope nobody is leaving their pets in the coach depending on this to work because the processor will shut the engine down before the cat is damaged. Just wrong, do some research, better yet, try one, you can rent one for a week.

i would like to remind both yourself and coachman it is not recommended that any diesel engine operate at idle for any extended period of time. Aside from additional carbon build up on the pistons and valves & guides, there are other problems. The sprinter uses an exhaust driven turbocharger with “variable turbine geometry” this means the vanes are movable, therefore as carbon builds on the turbo's vanes and mechanics from extended idling, it will lose its ability to properly change pitch. In simple terms, the engine, turbo and cat converter depend on fast moving “hot” exhaust to help evacuate carbon from the system. This is why vehicles which do a lot of highway driving seldom regen, since the exhaust flow and heat burn it off.
Again, it is mercedes approved. Your old school theories are just that, old school and theories.

Believe me, your slowly destroying you engine by allowing it to idle for long periods of time. Also, as i mentioned, allowing the engine to run while parked with no incoming air to remove the surrounding heat is cooking all the electronics under the hood. Have you ever walked around your car when stuck in traffic in 100+ degree heat, you can’t even touch the hood its so hot, your forcing your sprinter to do this every day, its not a good practice.
I'm sure your aware how much cooler a diesel runs then gas.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the center generator placement on the b vans. The generator is easily serviced from an oil change pit with no more difficulty than changing your oil in the engine. Myself, i would much prefer it to be mounted underneath than have the manufacture cut a hole and stick an ugly hatch on the side of my beautiful van. Who does this?

I’ve driven many midwest coaches with proair system both the 60,000 and 22,000 btu systems and found them to be much more quiet than a conventional roof unit or even a dash unit on high. More than likely the fan was on high when you rode in one. Keep in mind, these proair units are large and powerful and has 5-6 times the cooling capacity than you do in your coachman. [B]Coachmens 20,000 btu pro air works great, why would you ever need 60,000? [/B]Maybe if there is no insulation?
Regretfully, you should have researched the proair systems further, their latest release is a 22,000 btu system with is light and cools the coach perfectly. You would be a lot better off if your coach had a proair than the small cooling system you have now. My 20,000 btu a/c works great, love that it runs on 12 volt and has a quiet brush-less motor.

Lastly as per your request, here’s an image of my onan under my midwest 4x4 coach, plenty of room to even crawl under the generator. Since its not in an enclosed metal box, its its very quiet and cools much better. A diesel generator could easily fit under there. I thought i asked for a picture of a diesel gen that's close to that size. The 2.5 lp gen literally is a terrible generator, try using it at 3000 feet. I have had one, it's no fun crawling under the van while camping to reset the circuit breaker, it happens, and not just at altitude, don't try and use the convection with the a/c on. :(
also when my generator is running, it is barely audible any where in the coach. From the front seat you won’t know its running. Keep in mind unlike a lot of rv companies, midwest is a custom coach builder, they build a high-end quality limo's and custom vans for the entertainment industry so they offer extra insulation and sound deadening in all their coaches. Midwest was a brand i also considered, coachmen offers more for less. More insulation, more technology. Anyone can put a coating on mdf wood.

Regards - tom

regards - mike

not a diesel gen.

[Dave-Oh]

This is a great thread - I had questions about the extra alternator/main engine as a generator replacement and have similar concerns as Mike has stated - HOWEVER: the type of usage I'm considering would possibly allow for the generator delete without major issues as I don't do boondocking for the most part. So Mike:

I'm interested in the coachman as a touring coach with the occasional need to keep the doggies cool while grocery shopping or having a bite at a restaurant. I also like the idea of being able to run the coach A/C on the road without having to run a generator to use it. I also generally "camp" in campgrounds with full hookups.

My questions for Mike and B-RV:

1. would the Coachman type LiPo system really allow for a solid 4 hours of A/C utilizing only the batteries (Coachman says 8 hours)?
2. If utilizing full hookup, would I really have a need for a generator for a rest stop or shopping/sightseeing outing of 4 - 6 hours if I couldn't take the dogs?
3. Could either/both of you address the heating system if there's no propane on board?

I do like the idea of an "all electric" coach with just the need to fill the diesel and water tanks for what we are currently doing. We will downsize in the next few years, so I'm following this type of discussion with interest. I am a little Leary of diesel due to the regen issues, turbo issues and maintenance costs, but I have a friend with a View who is totally sold. I also like the torque and towing capacity.

The vigorous debate on this thread is excellent. I'd really like you guys opinions on what I'm thinking my usage will be with the LiPo system in the Coachman with minimal boondocking - an overnight or two at most...

best

Dave

[KanzKran]

Originally Posted by Dave-Oh

I'm interested in the coachman as a touring coach with the occasional need to keep the doggies cool while grocery shopping or having a bite at a restaurant. I also like the idea of being able to run the coach A/C on the road without having to run a generator to use it. I also generally "camp" in campgrounds with full hookups.

(snip)

The vigorous debate on this thread is excellent. I'd really like you guys opinions on what I'm thinking my usage will be with the LiPo system in the Coachman with minimal boondocking - an overnight or two at most...

You've also summed up my intended usage quite succinctly - a travel van with minimal galley and head facilities, and the odd overnight stay, usually in an RV park of some stripe. We no longer have a dog, but that will change once we are more able to travel, so keeping dogs warm or cool is a real concern during a 2-hour restaurant or market visit.

But I'm not ready to spend that much coin on one yet, and I prefer to see how they work out over a long enough period to get a sense of how well the whole system works, as well as to see how other manufacturers make out. It looks like some others are working on the same concept.

So I'm watching this thread intently.

[B-RV]

Originally Posted by Dave-Oh

This is a great thread - I had questions about the extra alternator/main engine as a generator replacement and have similar concerns as Mike has stated - HOWEVER: the type of usage I'm considering would possibly allow for the generator delete without major issues as I don't do boondocking for the most part. So Mike:

I'm interested in the coachman as a touring coach with the occasional need to keep the doggies cool while grocery shopping or having a bite at a restaurant. I also like the idea of being able to run the coach A/C on the road without having to run a generator to use it. I also generally "camp" in campgrounds with full hookups.
I have a clock display the reads out everything I need to know for any concerns I have. The display wii read out current charge status of the battery, both in watt hours and amp hours, it also reads out like a fuel gage that shows where the battery is at in increments. It will tell you exactly how many amps or watts are being used in real time, based on the A/C running and the watt/amp hours in the battery you can calculate how many hours you can be away from the van with the A/C running. the 8 hours is pretty accurate, but to be overly cautious I plan on 6 when it reads out 8. Obviously, the climate comes into play. I have gone over 10 hours with A/C set at 74.

My questions for Mike and B-RV:

1. would the Coachman type LiPo system really allow for a solid 4 hours of A/C utilizing only the batteries (Coachman says 8 hours)?
Make sure you are above 90% state of charge, 6 ours is no problem even in extreme condition. Coachmen has more insulation than any other B van we looked at.
2. If utilizing full hookup, would I really have a need for a generator for a rest stop or shopping/sightseeing outing of 4 - 6 hours if I couldn't take the dogs? Once your hooked up to power, the electric takes over plus re-charges the battery to full.
3. Could either/both of you address the heating system if there's no propane on board?
The Truma Combi runs on propane most efficiently, it does have an electric heat mode, but it's not nearly as efficient.

I do like the idea of an "all electric" coach with just the need to fill the diesel and water tanks for what we are currently doing. We will downsize in the next few years, so I'm following this type of discussion with interest. I am a little Leary of diesel due to the regen issues, turbo issues and maintenance costs, but I have a friend with a View who is totally sold. I also like the torque and towing capacity.
Regen is not an issue, if you idle for 2-3 hours, just go on a drive, regen will take care of itself. If Mercedes had a problem with idling, they would not allow Mfg.'s to offer this.

The vigorous debate on this thread is excellent. I'd really like you guys opinions on what I'm thinking my usage will be with the LiPo system in the Coachman with minimal boondocking - an overnight or two at most...

best

Dave

Good luck Dave, wishing you all the best. Feel free to PM me for additional reasons why we went with the Coachmen B van.

[Idleup]

It's up to each owner, however, If you prefer to listen to manufacturer hype rather than facts, its your choice, I’m just trying to forewarn others of a potential problem.

I’m not going to repeat my past comments regarding the internal problems your creating to your engine and turbo and possible the cat with extended idling, especially at high temperatures. The biggest enemy is heat created from no forward movement to evacuate engine and exhaust heat. Let’s also not forget all the excessive usage to the engine is now exceeding your maintenance schedule.

I made some calls and received some first hand information that Mercedes is aware of this abnormal method of running the engine as a generator and issued a notice to RV manufactures that it’s in violation of their warranty for any RV company to install equipment that self-starts the engine and allows it to run long periods of time unattended.

There is nothing wrong with a second alternator for charging lithium or any type of batteries when traveling, however to run an automotive engine standing still in 100 degree heat for 3+ hours is defeating the intended use of the chassis.

The reason its taking 3 hrs, is because Coachman L13 is using a mid performance system. Other systems like Winnebago’s Pure3 uses a 58 volt alternator takes only take 1.5 hrs to recharge. There’s also a difference with the batteries themselves, Coachman uses a standard grade lithium ion packs where the Pure3 uses high density nickel manganese colbolt chemistry. The difference is 7,200 watts hours verses 8,700 watts hours. This means the Sprinters engine has to run for an 1 1/2 hr to recharge.

Another problem with these 2nd alternators is most are in-correctly located below the engine where it’s exposed to rain, debris and road salt. Making matters worse, due to its low location, a high parking curb may contact the alternator and/or wiring and destroy the system as well as risk a fire.

On earlier Galleria units, Coachman offered both lithium and a generator, however Coachman didn’t take into account the bigger charger would use more current so when the owner ran the A/C with the charger, it would exceed the generators capability. So what does Coachman do to fix the problem? they simply delete the generator (with no credit) and tell customers they don’t need it any longer. So now owners are forced to run the main engine for charging.

The choice is simple, you can have a single cyl engine running as per design, or you can have a 6 cyl engine running as not designed. One things for certain, the 6 cyl engine is going to burn a lot more fuel, cost much more for maintenance and load up the converter much quicker, so you’ll be doing regen’s more often. Let’s also not forget a regen takes from 1-3 gallons of diesel fuel.

Bottom line, Lithium is the future of RV's systems, however with the present systems we're no where close to getting rid of our generators. Running the main engine instead of a small generator makes no logical sense. The whole reason generators were installed in RV's is so we "Don't" have to run the main engine to cool or heat the coach.

Regards Mike

[B-RV]

Originally Posted by Idleup

It's up to each owner, however, If you prefer to listen to manufacturer hype rather than facts, its your choice, I’m just trying to forewarn others of a potential problem.again, I will defer to Roadtreks 8 years of using the underhood gen with NO engine problems, there's a few on the market today with over 150,000 miles on them. No issues.

I’m not going to repeat my past comments regarding the internal problems your creating to your engine and turbo and possible the cat with extended idling, especially at high temperatures. The biggest enemy is heat created from no forward movement to evacuate engine and exhaust heat. Let’s also not forget all the excessive usage to the engine is now exceeding your maintenance schedule.How many people have you EVER met that has had an overheating problem? I'm guessing same as the rest of us, ZERO.

I made some calls and received some first hand information that Mercedes is aware of this abnormal method of running the engine as a generator and issued a notice to RV manufactures that it’s in violation of their warranty for any RV company to install equipment that self-starts the engine and allows it to run long periods of time unattended.Very good, I did the same, I asked who was doing this. The only company violating Mercedes guidelines is Roadtrek, they are no longer a master up fitter per Mercedes.

There is nothing wrong with a second alternator for charging lithium or any type of batteries when traveling, however to run an automotive engine standing still in 100 degree heat for 3+ hours is defeating the intended use of the chassis.

The reason its taking 3 hrs, is because Coachman L13 is using a mid performance system. Other systems like Winnebago’s Pure3 uses a 58 volt alternator takes only take 1.5 hrs to recharge. There’s also a difference with the batteries themselves, Coachman uses a standard grade lithium ion packs where the Pure3 uses high density nickel manganese colbolt chemistry. Coachmen hit home with me on there choice of Lithium, they choose the absolute best. Costs more to choose the best, but I sure am glad they did. Coachmen went with a battery made by Lithionics, they have the safest and longest lasting battery made. It's the only Lithium battery available that has been listed and approved by UL, Lithionics uses grade A Lithium and they balance the cells, with Lithium Ion Phosphate the battery is much safer and can use the full amount of watt hours available. With NMC, you have a volatile chemical, if punctured it will burn. Not so with Lithionics, with NMC you can only charge it to 80% of it's full level and discharge down to 20%. So much for extra watt hours, you can't use 40% of them. Read the owners manual from Tesla, who also uses NMC lithium, if you're going to store you car for 2 weeks or more, be sure and discharge it below 80% before parking it for extended stays. Does this make sense in a RV? The difference is 7,200 watts hours verses 8,700 watts hours. This means the Sprinters engine has to run for an 1 1/2 hr to recharge.Coachmen usable watt hours VS. Pure 3 Coachmen: 7680WH's Pure 3: 6960 WH's


Another problem with these 2nd alternators is most are in-correctly located below the engine where it’s exposed to rain, debris and road salt. Making matters worse, due to its low location, a high parking curb may contact the alternator and/or wiring and destroy the system as well as risk a fire.Again, the alarmist look for faults. In real life does not and has not occurred. My second alternator is not even the lowest point of the components.

On earlier Galleria units, Coachman offered both lithium and a generator, however Coachman didn’t take into account the bigger charger would use more current so when the owner ran the A/C with the charger, it would exceed the generators capability. So what does Coachman do to fix the problem? they simply delete the generator (with no credit) and tell customers they don’t need it any longer. So now owners are forced to run the main engine for charging. WOW, that's just a bold face lie. Coachmen has NEVER installed a Gen with the Li3 electronics package! The entire Li3 system is components made and designed by Xantrex. NEVER has a generator been included with the Li3 package, why make up BS on this? IF an honest mistake? Forgiven!

The choice is simple, you can have a single cyl engine running as per design, or you can have a 6 cyl engine running as not designed. One things for certain, the 6 cyl engine is going to burn a lot more fuel, cost much more for maintenance and load up the converter much quicker, so you’ll be doing regen’s more often. Let’s also not forget a regen takes from 1-3 gallons of diesel fuel. After 8-10 thousand miles my MPG is hovering around 19. I can't speak for others that have a Sprinter without the Li3, but I'd love for someone to chime in on what they are getting. 1-3 gallons is a far reaching stretch.

Bottom line, Lithium is the future of RV's systems, however with the present systems we're no where close to getting rid of our generators.It's here and I agree, it will only get better. Love what todays technology has done to eliminate the loud, vibrating pain in the A$$ LP gen. Running the main engine instead of a small generator makes no logical sense. With my A/C running I get 8 hours of full use, with your loud, smelly Gen running you have about 8 hours of LP gas. When my batterys need a charge, I start the engine, when you need power, you drive away for more LP.The whole reason generators were installed in RV's is so we "Don't" have to run the main engine to cool or heat the coach.At one time the only way to generate power in an RV off the grid on an RV was a loud smelly, noisy Generator, NO MORE

Regards Mike

Mike feel free to PM me for my phone #, I've done more research, made more phone calls, spoke to Xantrex and been more diligent than most. I am a retired electrical engineer, I understand these systems better than most. Coachmen is using a Lithium system that is vertically integrated by Xantrex, 1 company, 1 system. I choose the safest and best Lithium battery available, I'd love to share my research and even share a few videos with you.

[Idleup]

B-RV thanks for the reply - Diesel repair and diagnostics is one of my trades, so my finding on Sprinters engine and emissions are factual. Thanks for pointing out you’re an electrical engineer, as it helps explain your limited knowledge on the principles of modern day diesels and emissions and the dangers of extended idling and damage it causes to diesel engine.

Any diesel running at less that “working rpm” will lead to residue buildup on engine components such as pistons, valves, turbo vanes and cat converter. By the very fact Mercedes holds regen, makes it that much worse. Most diesel engines perform a regen when the cat reaches a predetermined soot level of 44-45 grams. If you happen to park just prior to a needed regen, then begin running the engine say 3-6 hours a day for 2-3 days, you could easily exceed a 50-60 gram cat limit and permanently damage the “very expensive and now un-warranted converter.

Regarding your comments that you’ve run 2nd gens for years, means absolutely nothing, nor does it have any basis to contradict the fact diesel engines produce damaging soot at low rpm’s. I met a guy camping with a Sprinter with 118,000 miles, he advised me that he never changed the oil or filter. While his Sprinter seemed to run fine, this surely does not mean its now OK not to change the oil & filter for 118,000 miles.

Using your main engine as a generator makes absolutely no sense what-so ever. Why would anyone run an engine with six pistons and 24 valves with added drag from an active torque converter, water pump, alternator and belt tension drag just to turn a small alternator when a little Onan single cylinder air cooled gas or diesel generator can provide the same job. Making it worse, with no inflow of cool air, you’re cooking the electric components and heating the very same coach you’re trying to cool. You have to ask yourself why there are millions of owners with generators without any problems, could it be only you have a problem? If you generator is noisy, vibrates and smelly as you say, its Coachman's poor mounting and location not the generator. My generators none of those problems.

Wasted Fuel & Money - Depending on load, a 3.0L Sprinter engine running at high idle at (1000 -1500+) rpm, can burn up to 2+ gal per hour. What this means is, your burning 4 times the fuel of a typical 2500 watt generator. This same wasted engine power can push your van 20-30 mph, so in one typical 3 hr charge, you’re putting 60-90 miles of wear and tear on the engine. In addition, they are exceeding MB scheduled oil change maintenance schedule.

Regarding your comments on Midwest construction and generator mounting, you seem confused. While Coachman builds a nice “assembly line” coach, its just that, there’s absolutely no comparison. Midwest is a private custom coach company which builds custom vans and limos for the entertainment industry. They are the industry leader with fit and finish and built to the same quality standards as you would find in custom luxury coaches, the interior of the Midwest is like a small Prevost.

As an example to detail, unlike any other RV, Midwest removes all the dash panels, trim, door panels, kick panels, handles, speaker grilles, visors, visor housings etc. then carefully re-dyes the panels to perfectly match their custom interiors colors, so unlike other RV’s, you feel like you’re driving a custom coach, rather than a grey colored work van. The Midwest interior is unique and unlike any other B coach.

Regarding your generator comments, my image shows the generator is nearly a foot off the ground. Midwest offers an option for a Onan Quiet Diesel 3200, which fits at the same location as does a Powertech diesel. Midwest generator mounting design and location offers less exposure to elements than a typical side mounted “open box” mounted generator with its unsightly hatch. Unlike side mounted gen which is in the direct path of tire spray, Midwest mounts the generator at center, away from the floor of the coach reducing 50% of the noise. Their unique mounting and insulation pkg offers the quietest Type B generator on the market, its barely audible even in the rear of the coach.

In conclusion, while having a 2nd alternator is great when cruising down the road or when parked for a short time, running your vehicles engine for extended periods of time is a poor replacement for the simplicity of a Onan generator.

Coachman’s Lithium offering is flawed, the alternator is incorrectly located below the coach where it may be damaged or shorted circuited and exposed to debris, water and salt, any contact with any parking stop or curve would destroy the system. Coachman’s new “delete your generator hoax” is but another cost-cutting plan to confuse owners and delete their generator with no credit. Bottom line, anyone who buys any RV without a generator is making a major mistake they will regret for years to come!

Best Regards - Mike

[B-RV]

Originally Posted by Idleup

B-RV thanks for the reply - Diesel repair and diagnostics is one of my trades, so my finding on Sprinters engine and emissions are factual. Thanks for pointing out you’re an electrical engineer, as it helps explain your limited knowledge on the principles of modern day diesels and emissions and the dangers of extended idling and damage it causes to diesel engine.At one time horse and buggy tradesmen had no use for a combustion engine. Times progress my friend.

Any diesel running at less that “working rpm” will lead to residue buildup on engine components such as pistons, valves, turbo vanes and cat converter. By the very fact Mercedes holds regen, makes it that much worse. Most diesel engines perform a regen when the cat reaches a predetermined soot level of 44-45 grams. If you happen to park just prior to a needed regen, then begin running the engine say 3-6 hours a day for 2-3 days, you could easily exceed a 50-60 gram cat limit and permanently damage the “very expensive and now un-warranted converter. Only Roadtrek has an unwarranted converter, and that's due to their lousy volt start design.

Regarding your comments that you’ve run 2nd gens for years, means absolutely nothing, nor does it have any basis to contradict the fact diesel engines produce damaging soot at low rpm’s. I met a guy camping with a Sprinter with 118,000 miles, he advised me that he never changed the oil or filter. While his Sprinter seemed to run fine, this surely does not mean its now OK not to change the oil & filter for 118,000 miles.You make sound like I was referring to me alone for 8 years, Roadtrek is the company that introduced the 2nd alternator over 8 years ago. In that 8 years, nobody has had diesel engine problems. That would be thousands of Sprinters on the road traveling hundreds of thousands of miles trouble free.

Using your main engine as a generator makes absolutely no sense what-so ever. Why would anyone run an engine with six pistons and 24 valves with added drag from an active torque converter, water pump, alternator and belt tension drag just to turn a small alternator when a little Onan single cylinder air cooled gas or diesel generator can provide the same job.Simple, if I pull off the road for lunch on a 90 degree day, the DW and I can make lunch sit back and relax AND run the roof A/C for hours, no need to fire up the noisy stinky gen. Making it worse, with no inflow of cool air, you’re cooking the electric components and heating the very same coach you’re trying to cool. You have to ask yourself why there are millions of owners with generators without any problems, could it be only you have a problem? Knock on wood, I have had 0 problems, however when I go back to the days of having a Gen, I had pages of problems with the Gen. If you generator is noisy, vibrates and smelly as you say, its Coachman's poor mounting and location not the generator. My generators none of those problems.

Wasted Fuel & Money - Depending on load, a 3.0L Sprinter engine running at high idle at (1000 -1500+) rpm, can burn up to 2+ gal per hour. What this means is, your burning 4 times the fuel of a typical 2500 watt generator. This same wasted engine power can push your van 20-30 mph, so in one typical 3 hr charge, you’re putting 60-90 miles of wear and tear on the engine. In addition, they are exceeding MB scheduled oil change maintenance schedule.Because the Li3 system has a Belmar that allows the BMS to utilize both the 2nd alt as well as the Mercedes alt, I am charged up in 2 hours. Try that with a lp gen.

Regarding your comments on Midwest construction and generator mounting, you seem confused. While Coachman builds a nice “assembly line” coach, its just that, there’s absolutely no comparison. Midwest is a private custom coach company which builds custom vans and limos for the entertainment industry. They are the industry leader with fit and finish and built to the same quality standards as you would find in custom luxury coaches, the interior of the Midwest is like a small Prevost. Midwest is a Fleetwood company, been getting cheaper every year since. If you don't know what Fleetwood does to quality, you haven't been in the RV world long enough.

As an example to detail, unlike any other RV, Midwest removes all the dash panels, trim, door panels, kick panels, handles, speaker grilles, visors, visor housings etc. then carefully re-dyes the panels to perfectly match their custom interiors colors, so unlike other RV’s, you feel like you’re driving a custom coach, rather than a grey colored work van. The Midwest interior is unique and unlike any other B coach. Not hard to put lipstick on a pig. I'm glad the cosmetics impress you, I dug deeper and looked under the eye appeal. Coachmen won hands down.

Regarding your generator comments, my image shows the generator is nearly a foot off the ground. Midwest offers an option for a Onan Quiet Diesel 3200, which fits at the same location as does a Powertech diesel.Why do we not see this on class B's or B+ models? Midwest generator mounting design and location offers less exposure to elements than a typical side mounted “open box” mounted generator with its unsightly hatch. Unlike side mounted gen which is in the direct path of tire spray, Midwest mounts the generator at center, away from the floor of the coach reducing 50% of the noise. Their unique mounting and insulation pkg offers the quietest Type B generator on the market, its barely audible even in the rear of the coach. All B Mfg. mount the gen in the same location. Now B+ models are a different story.

In conclusion, while having a 2nd alternator is great when cruising down the road or when parked for a short time,You'd be correct if you'd have stopped right there. running your vehicles engine for extended periods of time is a poor replacement for the simplicity of a Onan generator. I love the fact that I can go visit my kids and grand kids and park in the drive way. At bedtime the Mrs. & I head out to our bedroom suite in the drive way. We are allowed to run the A/C with no HOA or neighbor complaints, because I have no loud stinky generator.

Coachman’s Lithium offering is flawed, the alternator is incorrectly located below the coach where it may be damaged or shorted circuited and exposed to debris, water and salt, any contact with any parking stop or curve would destroy the system. Coachman’s new “delete your generator hoax” is but another cost-cutting plan to confuse owners and delete their generator with no credit. The cost for Coachmen's superior Li3 design is less than that of Winnebago's L option lithium, and the Winnebago Pure 3 is a junk design for an RV application. Bottom line, anyone who buys any RV without a generator is making a major mistake they will regret for years to come! Wrong, they would be better off with a horse and buggy. Sometimes new technology takes a few stubborn people time to wrap there head around it. Hey, at one time people argued that electric car windows were a bad idea as well. What if the motor breaks? A simple crank window works just great, these dumb car companies are just trying to rip you off.

Best Regards - Mike

Thanks Mike, it's been a good banter going back and forth, no hard feelings I hope! I wish you many happy trails in your adventurous, If I ever happen to be parked next to a black 4X4 Midwest, I will stop over and see if it's you.