2nd Vectra/Horizon on Freightliner chassis I have looked at w/mileage wrong.

[Doug427]

I've looked at Vectra and Horizon 40 footers for just a short time now while shopping, and I have now already come across my second one where the mileage indicated on the odometer does not match actual. One was privately owned, and in speaking with the owner he says it's a common fault in the Freightliner system. He says the repair shop scanned his ECU but Freightliner won't restore the correct mileage as stored in the ECU for legal reasons. Has anyone heard of this, and what's the story? One of them is a very nice coach but I'm leery of getting involved because then I have to deal with a coach with "stories" when it's my time to sell. Can anyone fill me in on whats going on here? Is this really a well known situation with these Vectra/Horizon on Freightliner chassis coaches? Am I wrong in thinking that this would be a issue when I sell it? Is there no way to properly restore the mileage on the odometer, or at least reliably document the true miles with some accepted and reliable form?I would really only get involved with one of these if I am absolutely certain that somehow I can get the odometer to display the actual mileage.



What do you guys think? Have you heard of this? Can the mileage be made to be reflected accurately on the odometer again? Am I over blowing this issue?


edit: I should add that I searched extensively on this and it seems the be an all too common problem in the Freightliner chassis. It's a Freightliner issue, not a Winnie/Itasca issue. More troubling, there is very conflicting info on the net about the ability., or lack thereof, of getting this rectified. Most say that Freightliner tells guys to pound sand, even, unbelievably, when Freightliner service DID IT TO THEM while servicing their chassis! Some say that it can be and was repaired by Freightliner. One post showed a link to a company that specializes in restoring mileage to an odometer assuming that a certified form of actual mileage is provided to them. Ominously, when you go to their site they say they do almost all makes EXCEPT Freightliner! Ugh, my head hurts.......

[Pigman1]

Yeah, I've had people tell me of similar problems on Tiffins with a Freightliner chassis. Really stupid in my opinion. I have a Powerglide chassis under my Tiffin Allegro Bus and have had the speedo or odometer go out 3 times (over 110,000 miles). In one case Tiffin just sent me a new speedometer cluster and instructions on how to set the odometer. Since the problem was the speedometer, the odometer reading did not have to be read through the computer. In the second case the odometer went out part way down from Alaska, but we used the GPS mileage and were only off about 22 miles in over 2500 miles. In the third case, Tiffin replaced the cluster at the factory reading the computer to be sure the mileage I gave them was correct. In all cases there was never a question about them doing it, just whether I was going to do it or they were. Evidently some idiot lawyer in Freightliner got hit with a stupid stick and had enough power to make a ridiculous decision stick.

[FIRE UP]

Originally Posted by Doug427

I've looked at Vectra and Horizon 40 footers for just a short time now while shopping, and I have now already come across my second one where the mileage indicated on the odometer does not match actual. One was privately owned, and in speaking with the owner he says it's a common fault in the Freightliner system. He says the repair shop scanned his ECU but Freightliner won't restore the correct mileage as stored in the ECU for legal reasons. Has anyone heard of this, and what's the story? One of them is a very nice coach but I'm leery of getting involved because then I have to deal with a coach with "stories" when it's my time to sell. Can anyone fill me in on whats going on here? Is this really a well known situation with these Vectra/Horizon on Freightliner chassis coaches? Am I wrong in thinking that this would be a issue when I sell it? Is there no way to properly restore the mileage on the odometer, or at least reliably document the true miles with some accepted and reliable form?I would really only get involved with one of these if I am absolutely certain that somehow I can get the odometer to display the actual mileage.



What do you guys think? Have you heard of this? Can the mileage be made to be reflected accurately on the odometer again? Am I over blowing this issue?


edit: I should add that I searched extensively on this and it seems the be an all too common problem in the Freightliner chassis. It's a Freightliner issue, not a Winnie/Itasca issue. More troubling, there is very conflicting info on the net about the ability., or lack thereof, of getting this rectified. Most say that Freightliner tells guys to pound sand, even, unbelievably, when Freightliner service DID IT TO THEM while servicing their chassis! Some say that it can be and was repaired by Freightliner. One post showed a link to a company that specializes in restoring mileage to an odometer assuming that a certified form of actual mileage is provided to them. Ominously, when you go to their site they say they do almost all makes EXCEPT Freightliner! Ugh, my head hurts.......

Doug,
Well, not sure where you're getting your info on it being a "common" issue. I've been on multiple RV forums for years and years and have read of only a very few of the Freightliner owners that have had this issue. I've got plenty of friends who own Freightliner equipped chassis's, including Vectras and we own an '04 Itasca Horizon 36GD with the CAT C-7 330HP and, none of them or our self has had any issues with incorrect mileage.

Now, primarily, the basic and for the most part, ONLY reason any of the Freightliner equipped chassis's can loose mileage is, if the "MMDC" or, Multi-Module-Data-Controller goes bad and it has to be replaced. The MMDC is a small, about 7"x7"x 1" thick black computer that normally, in Vectra's and Horizons, sits up in the left front compartment, right in front of the left front wheel.

It is the main link between all engine/trans/ABS and air system input to the gauges/annunciator panel/light bar etc. that you see on the dash. And, it also plays an important part in the display of the mileage of the coach. If the MMDC goes south, and a new one is installed, then yes, your mileage is most likely gonna say ZERO! The last time anyone wrote about this issue, that I can remember, on any RV forum that I've kept abreast on was years ago.

In the early years of the MMDC which, first appeared in our era coach, there were one or two on this forum that if and when they had their MMDC replaced, could or, did have, the mileage restored. But, ever since then, each and every one that's been replaced, (again, very, very few have reported any issues with theirs) the mileage was off.

Now, "Flashing" an ECM, is done on a frequent basis in many CAT and Freightliner service centers and, there should be, no reason for any mileage to change. Most of the flashed units are done for engine performance/smog/operational updates which, don't really have anything to do with mileage. Now, by far, I'm no expert on any of this. I've just been around these and read up on their operation for years.

Here's something else to think about. While most people would like correct mileage on a coach if we're about to spend BIG BUCKS on it, if the coach in question is in great shape, has the floor plan that suits all involved, runs great, all components check out with proper inspection and operational tests, stops great, trans operates as programmed, and no major issues, then mileage abnormalities might just drop to second priorities, at least in my opinion. Nobody that I know wants or likes incorrect mileage readings but, in cases like this, again, which are in reality RARE, it is what it is.

As for getting it corrected, well, the FEDs have been pretty darn strict on manipulating mileage in autos/trucks/motorhomes/motorcycles/space ships/submarines etc. for decades and decades so, I might suspect that, that or they, might have some influence on what can or cannot be "corrected" or manipulated. Just a guess here. If the coach(s) you're looking at are in all other ways, PERFECT, then I'd not worry too much about the mileage. But, that's just me.
Scott

[DJJ]

Caterpillar in Miami set the mileage to what I told them the mileage was before they replaced the ECM.

Freightliner chassis and as mentioned CAT 3126b. After they replaced the ECM on the engine before I left the lot I noticed the odometer was at 0 miles. Walked back it to the office and 5 minutes later the tech and service manager were in the parking lot with a computer hooked up to the coach and asked me what was the mileage when I brought it in. They took my word and set the mileage to what I told them. Yes, I had the mileage set to what it was suppose to be.

Jeff

So the point being it was easy to set the mileage to what ever you want if you have the right computer to program the ECM. I am sure their are state laws that regulate altering odometer mileage.

[Doug427]

Originally Posted by FIRE UP

Doug,
Well, not sure where you're getting your info on it being a "common" issue. I've been on multiple RV forums for years and years and have read of only a very few of the Freightliner owners that have had this issue. I've got plenty of friends who own Freightliner equipped chassis's, including Vectras and we own an '04 Itasca Horizon 36GD with the CAT C-7 330HP and, none of them or our self has had any issues with incorrect mileage.

Now, primarily, the basic and for the most part, ONLY reason any of the Freightliner equipped chassis's can loose mileage is, if the "MMDC" or, Multi-Module-Data-Controller goes bad and it has to be replaced. The MMDC is a small, about 7"x7"x 1" thick black computer that normally, in Vectra's and Horizons, sits up in the left front compartment, right in front of the left front wheel.

It is the main link between all engine/trans/ABS and air system input to the gauges/annunciator panel/light bar etc. that you see on the dash. And, it also plays an important part in the display of the mileage of the coach. If the MMDC goes south, and a new one is installed, then yes, your mileage is most likely gonna say ZERO! The last time anyone wrote about this issue, that I can remember, on any RV forum that I've kept abreast on was years ago.

In the early years of the MMDC which, first appeared in our era coach, there were one or two on this forum that if and when they had their MMDC replaced, could or, did have, the mileage restored. But, ever since then, each and every one that's been replaced, (again, very, very few have reported any issues with theirs) the mileage was off.

Now, "Flashing" an ECM, is done on a frequent basis in many CAT and Freightliner service centers and, there should be, no reason for any mileage to change. Most of the flashed units are done for engine performance/smog/operational updates which, don't really have anything to do with mileage. Now, by far, I'm no expert on any of this. I've just been around these and read up on their operation for years.

Here's something else to think about. While most people would like correct mileage on a coach if we're about to spend BIG BUCKS on it, if the coach in question is in great shape, has the floor plan that suits all involved, runs great, all components check out with proper inspection and operational tests, stops great, trans operates as programmed, and no major issues, then mileage abnormalities might just drop to second priorities, at least in my opinion. Nobody that I know wants or likes incorrect mileage readings but, in cases like this, again, which are in reality RARE, it is what it is.

As for getting it corrected, well, the FEDs have been pretty darn strict on manipulating mileage in autos/trucks/motorhomes/motorcycles/space ships/submarines etc. for decades and decades so, I might suspect that, that or they, might have some influence on what can or cannot be "corrected" or manipulated. Just a guess here. If the coach(s) you're looking at are in all other ways, PERFECT, then I'd not worry too much about the mileage. But, that's just me.
Scott

Thanks for that Scott. I've looked for only a month or so have have come across two already with this issue, so I assumed it must be more common than apparently it is. I have found some other examples of this issue on the net in doing a search. I know one of the coaches with this issue that I was looking at sent me a statement from the Freightliner service center he dealt with. They wrote on his statement/service record that his odometer lost ground and that interruption in ground and subsequent power caused the odometer info to drop out, and that they absolutely can verify the correct mileage (they stated the actual mileage on the service statement), and they also stated that they would NOT restore it to the odometer. I don't know what the story is on the other one I had seen. Thanks for responding, I appreciate it.



Doug

[Doug427]

Originally Posted by DJJ

Caterpillar in Miami set the mileage to what I told them the mileage was before they replaced the ECM.

Freightliner chassis and as mentioned CAT 3126b. After they replaced the ECM on the engine before I left the lot I noticed the odometer was at 0 miles. Walked back it to the office and 5 minutes later the tech and service manager were in the parking lot with a computer hooked up to the coach and asked me what was the mileage when I brought it in. They took my word and set the mileage to what I told them. Yes, I had the mileage set to what it was suppose to be.

Jeff

So the point being it was easy to set the mileage to what ever you want if you have the right computer to program the ECM. I am sure their are state laws that regulate altering odometer mileage.

How nice it would be if Freightliner were supportive enough to do the same. If you can absolutely prove what the correct certified mileage is, I don't see the issue with simply restoring that certified correct mileage to the display that it was originally on. As someone had mentioned earlier, there's almost certainly some "brilliant" legal mind behind this somewhere.

[rgvtexan]

Have not had this problem, my VMSpc and odometer agree. The VMSpc is a great add on.

The Horizon is a great coach. Find a floorplan you like and enjoy.

[NevadaNick]

Happened to our Phaeton the day we bought it. It reset itself. They were able to get the mileage corrected but genset hours were never corrected.

[Doug427]

Originally Posted by rgvtexan

Have not had this problem, my VMSpc and odometer agree. The VMSpc is a great add on.

The Horizon is a great coach. Find a floorplan you like and enjoy.

VMSpc looks like a great product. What's the smallest most compact device it runs on? Does anyone run it on a small Microsoft tablet, iPad or Amazon Fire type device and leave it up as a monitor? Is there anything that is small enough to permanently mount to display it all the time? Is there any reason to do that?

[rgvtexan]

Check their web site. i'm using a 10" netbook.

https://www.silverleafelectronics.co....com/index.php

https://www.silverleafelectronics.com/node/5676

from Art at Silverleaf,

re: Tablet choices
First, the PC kit, as you've found, requires Windows. That's step or point one. Next:

--Full size USB socket. This will operate as you've seen on most PCs over the past 20yrs. The tablets with only a micro-USB don't use that socket in the same way; they're non-starters.

So, that's about it for requirements. Next is: It must actually fit somewhere...

Most folks are migrating towards the Asus, Acer and RCA Cambio with some users opting for the Surface-Pro from Microsoft. Any of these are fine if they meet those two criteria. You'll also note (though not obvious) the top most images on the VMSpc Gallery are Cambios; these are then powered by 5V by way of a small barrel connection. This is often done via ciggy lighter adapter to USB, then a Cambio power cable from there to the tablet. Alternatively, I believe there's also dedicated plug/cable sets for this online.

The 5V tablets typically draw less than 2A @ 5V, putting less than 1A of load on the 12V.

cheers


Art

[Doug427]

Originally Posted by rgvtexan

Check their web site. i'm using a 10" netbook.

https://www.silverleafelectronics.co....com/index.php

https://www.silverleafelectronics.com/node/5676

from Art at Silverleaf,

re: Tablet choices
First, the PC kit, as you've found, requires Windows. That's step or point one. Next:

--Full size USB socket. This will operate as you've seen on most PCs over the past 20yrs. The tablets with only a micro-USB don't use that socket in the same way; they're non-starters.

So, that's about it for requirements. Next is: It must actually fit somewhere...

Most folks are migrating towards the Asus, Acer and RCA Cambio with some users opting for the Surface-Pro from Microsoft. Any of these are fine if they meet those two criteria. You'll also note (though not obvious) the top most images on the VMSpc Gallery are Cambios; these are then powered by 5V by way of a small barrel connection. This is often done via ciggy lighter adapter to USB, then a Cambio power cable from there to the tablet. Alternatively, I believe there's also dedicated plug/cable sets for this online.

The 5V tablets typically draw less than 2A @ 5V, putting less than 1A of load on the 12V.

cheers


Art

Perfect, that's exactly what I was thinking of.

[High Ball]

Have the same problem on my motorhome with the freightliner Chassis. At around 53,000 miles the Odometer falls to zero. I called Freightliner and they told me that this is a glitch on some ECM's and they can't do nothing about it. Even if I go with a new ECM with many $$$$ it would be to zero. I asked them if they can with computer to put to original mileage and told me it was against the law to do that. I asked them if it was illegal for a ECM to put mileage to a different mileage and he couldn't answer me. Wonder why ??? I asked what could I do if I want to sell my MH or for any reason to get the original mileage and he told me there is a way to see original and odometer mileage.
Here is how you can do it.

put key on but don't start
Press H on info center
arrow down to service and press E
at diagnostic press E
enter password 8127 then press E
arrow down until you see ECU vs IP ODO DIFF
this will show you what both mileage is and the difference.
Hope this helps

[Doug427]

Originally Posted by High Ball

Have the same problem on my motorhome with the freightliner Chassis. At around 53,000 miles the Odometer falls to zero. I called Freightliner and they told me that this is a glitch on some ECM's and they can't do nothing about it. Even if I go with a new ECM with many $$$$ it would be to zero. I asked them if they can with computer to put to original mileage and told me it was against the law to do that. I asked them if it was illegal for a ECM to put mileage to a different mileage and he couldn't answer me. Wonder why ??? I asked what could I do if I want to sell my MH or for any reason to get the original mileage and he told me there is a way to see original and odometer mileage.
Here is how you can do it.

put key on but don't start
Press H on info center
arrow down to service and press E
at diagnostic press E
enter password 8127 then press E
arrow down until you see ECU vs IP ODO DIFF
this will show you what both mileage is and the difference.
Hope this helps

As far as I can tell it’s absolutely legal to restore the correct mileage to a replacement display. I’m reasonably sure they have some overzealous lawyer telling them not to do it. Clearly other manufacturers do it legally. Very disappointing response from Freightliner.

[Pigman1]

Originally Posted by Doug427

As far as I can tell it’s absolutely legal to restore the correct mileage to a replacement display. I’m reasonably sure they have some overzealous lawyer telling them not to do it. Clearly other manufacturers do it legally. Very disappointing response from Freightliner.

Yeah, absolutely ridiculous isn't it. Only way to change that type policy is to have a number of Freightliner Chassis owners start writing letters to Freightliner upper management and putting repeated multiple complaints on forums and boards regarding their stupid policy. With enough pressure they will change, but it takes a long term, continuing effort. If a few buyers turn down Freightliner Chassis equipped motor homes and Freightliner and their dealers start to see it as a sales issue, they'll change. Good luck. Consumers can only vote with their pocketbook, but they CAN do that.