Lippert 414850 / 179327 Motor - Replacement & Alternate Source

[f15epilot]

Posting this in the Travel Supreme forum since, well, it's on my ME "Unikorn" Toy Hauler. Yes, I know all (as far as I know) other TS have Leveling Systems, not LCI or Lippert. Still, the title should let others with LCI/Lippert systems find the info.

I replaced the original jack hydraulic system (it tapped the coach hydraulics at the power steering...so no 'manual retract' and a leak meant you could not drive!) with a LCI/Lippert pump/reservoir. The jack legs were/are PowerGear, now Lippert. See previous post on that install.

This past weekend after being parked for four days, I hit the retract and all seemed well, except the "Jacks Down" kept momentarily coming on. Checked the jacks and all were up (they are power up/down; no springs), so pressed towards home. After noticing that each momentary flash was accompanied with a momentary voltage drop, it became apparent the system was trying to get the 3000psi "UP" pressure by cycling the pump...I thought. Eventually, the light went steady followed by the alarm. I pulled into a parking lot and found a VERY hot motor in the compartment. OK...disconnected the harness to kill the alarm and went home uneventfully.

Lippert has a handy troubleshooting guide, which I followed and confirmed that indeed, the motor was bad...as in frozen...as in, the manual nut used to manually retract would not budge. Guessing it was melted internally, I pulled it apart. That is actually quite simple: disconnect power, loosen the band clamp that holds the solenoid in place, remove the wire from the solenoid to motor (+) and slide the solenoid off, then remove two 4mm allen screws (top and bottom) and the motor comes out. Just be sure to catch the drive coupling.

On mine, unlike a lot of the 2006-07 Monaco folks (see writeups on that forum), my pump was clearly well sealed and dry. The coupling was clean and the factory blue grease clean. I could, however, smell burnt motor windings. I removed the manual retract nut (it is reverse threaded), removed the two long bolts, and tapping the case, pulled the motor apart.
Yep...fried. It appears one of the armature windings went bad and/or a bad brush or both. So...need a new motor.

Here's what anyone with one of these systems (ask the Monaco folks) will tell you...motors are NOT cheap. The RV dealerships want over a GRAND for just the motor. Lippert wants $977.38 (oh, with free shipping), and even Amazon is $800+ depending on source. Needing the motor by Thursday, I ordered the Amazon one Tuesday night. And that is where it got interesting.

You see, if you call a parts department and ask for this 414850 motor that I pulled off , they will not usually find it.



But if you give them the 179327 number, it will show up. That is what I ordered. What arrived? See pic #2.


Yep...it's labeled 414850, just a later serial number. I installed it in under an hour to include adding a 60amp C/B in a more convenient spot. And it works like a champ...arguably quieter.

SO...nope, not the end of the story. I know motors can be rebuilt; even Sailor Lou has a post on another site saying as much about this very motor. That led me to searching for a 414850 rebuilding source and what did I find? Western Motors Service Company in Rockford, IL. Turns out, they MAKE a W-414850 motor that is a replacement for the 414850...same .256in slot shaft, .8KW 12V motor as that 179327. One BIG difference...theirs is $385! WOW...less than HALF the price of anywhere else that sells the official 179327.

Yep...half temped to order one from WMS and send it back as a return to Amazon...but my integrity is worth more than what I'd save.

HOPEFULLY...anyone needing to replace their motor will see this and save themselves a LOT of diesel money.

[f15epilot]

Here's what the final re-install looks like.



And in case someone asks why 60amp and not 50 or 80...

If you research on this forum and others, you'll find that Lippert/LCI recommended a 50amp for their installs. Then, after having issues with the 50amp C/B popping under load, Lippert put out a service bulletin recommending upping that to an 80amp C/B. Now if you search for that service bulletin, it will show up in the results but clicking on the LCI link gives a 'Not Found" error because they pulled it. Why??

My guess, they simply masked the real issue that was causing the over-current by increasing the C/B. And all that does is let the issue get progressively worse until something breaks or the C/B fries the motor (or worse). So, now LCI/Lippert leaves it to the manufacturer to choose the installed C/B size. Since I'm effectively the OEM for this system (see previous posts...why I call the ME my Unakorn), I chose 60 to give me a slight cushion, but not so much as to "hopefully" fry the motor.

[B polizzi]

Thanks for the tip!! I just ordered one from Western Motors Service and their price is now $375. He told me that they have sold over 200 of these motors in the past year with no problems or returns. So fingers crossed.

[B polizzi]

Here's the update on the Western Motor Service replacement. The good: Half the price and it does work for this application. The bad: Wrong rotation if connected as marked (+ - ), smaller overall length of case and no access on the end cap to manually spin with drill if needed. I will be sending my original motor to them for evaluation and hopefully a rebuild. will update with the status of that.

[Graderman]

Originally Posted by B polizzi

Here's the update on the Western Motor Service replacement. The good: Half the price and it does work for this application. The bad: Wrong rotation if connected as marked (+ - ), smaller overall length of case and no access on the end cap to manually spin with drill if needed. I will be sending my original motor to them for evaluation and hopefully a rebuild. will update with the status of that.

I just ordered my replacement today. When you say wrong rotation, does the replacement not just bolt on?

[B polizzi]

It bolts on fine. Just check that when powered it spins in a counter clockwise rotation. since there is no access on the rear, you will have to verify this before you bolt it on. If you need to reverse, just swap the + & - leads.

[carl.swoyer]

On my Landmark Rushmore fifth wheel I took my motor to a alternator shop. He replaced the brushes and post. Charged me under $200.00.
Big savings over buying new.
That was six months ago.

[Graderman]

Originally Posted by B polizzi

It bolts on fine. Just check that when powered it spins in a counter clockwise rotation. since there is no access on the rear, you will have to verify this before you bolt it on. If you need to reverse, just swap the + & - leads.

Thanks. That's what I thought you meant. My plan is to have the original rebuilt so I can put it back on, but am a little bit of a pinch due to an upcoming trip. Thanks again for the tips.

[Klingon]

Originally Posted by Graderman

Thanks. That's what I thought you meant. My plan is to have the original rebuilt so I can put it back on, but am a little bit of a pinch due to an upcoming trip. Thanks again for the tips.

Hi, I just received and installed same motor from Western and it may be running backwards. When I switch the leads, does the smaller gauge wire currently on the negative post get switched over to the positive post as well? Thanks!

[Klingon]

Originally Posted by B polizzi

Here's the update on the Western Motor Service replacement. The good: Half the price and it does work for this application. The bad: Wrong rotation if connected as marked (+ - ), smaller overall length of case and no access on the end cap to manually spin with drill if needed. I will be sending my original motor to them for evaluation and hopefully a rebuild. will update with the status of that.

Hi, I just received and installed same motor from Western and it may be running backwards. When I switch the leads, does the smaller gauge wire currently on the negative post get switched over to the positive post as well? Thanks!

[B polizzi]

On my motor, both leads were the same size but yes, just switch the two to reverse the rotation.

[Graderman]

Originally Posted by Klingon

Hi, I just received and installed same motor from Western and it may be running backwards. When I switch the leads, does the smaller gauge wire currently on the negative post get switched over to the positive post as well? Thanks!

Yep. They both switch over. I finished my install and took it out for a test weekend. Worked great. Seems like the motor moves a little quicker also. Will post some pics when I get to my desk.

[carl.swoyer]

Originally Posted by f15epilot

Here's what the final re-install looks like.



Attachment 257020



And in case someone asks why 60amp and not 50 or 80...



If you research on this forum and others, you'll find that Lippert/LCI recommended a 50amp for their installs. Then, after having issues with the 50amp C/B popping under load, Lippert put out a service bulletin recommending upping that to an 80amp C/B. Now if you search for that service bulletin, it will show up in the results but clicking on the LCI link gives a 'Not Found" error because they pulled it. Why??



My guess, they simply masked the real issue that was causing the over-current by increasing the C/B. And all that does is let the issue get progressively worse until something breaks or the C/B fries the motor (or worse). So, now LCI/Lippert leaves it to the manufacturer to choose the installed C/B size. Since I'm effectively the OEM for this system (see previous posts...why I call the ME my Unakorn), I chose 60 to give me a slight cushion, but not so much as to "hopefully" fry the motor.

When changing the circuit breaker size careful consideration should be given to the existing wire size.
That being said, I also almost up graded the factory auto reset (50amp) to an 80 amp breaker. But my wiring wouldn't support the increase in amps.
Now I have a couple of spare 50 amp breakers.

[B polizzi]

Originally Posted by Graderman

Yep. They both switch over. I finished my install and took it out for a test weekend. Worked great. Seems like the motor moves a little quicker also. Will post some pics when I get to my desk.

Glad it all worked out for you. Don't be too quick to dispose of your old motor. I ordered the parts to rebuild my original motor (2 new brush kits and brush holder) and will post the results. If it works out, I will reinstall the rebuilt original and keep the Western motor as a spare.