Community Forums

757driver · 08-18-2016, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brobox

Don, I totally agree with you 200%. But for some reason....nobody can explain, when I had the bad Command 30, it was drawing the "usable" voltage reading down in the inverter panel.. Would the batteries have lasted longer than the inverter reading?.....that I don't know, but it showed that my batteries were dead. Drove me nuts! Thanks you for all of your hand holding

Chuck,

For two different systems (EC-30 panel and Magnum inverter panels) that have absolutely nothing to do with each other and are in no way connected. I cannot buy Entegra's explanation that the bad voltage indication on the EC-30 panel affected and pulled down the voltage reading on the inverter panels. They each pull their voltage reading either directly or indirectly from the battery bank so I think it is as you say a rather big mystery. Good news is yours is working great now so knock on wood and keep your fingers crossed each time you look up at those panels.

Matt D · 08-18-2016, 07:20 PM

Thanks Don, I forgot that. I've been thinking whatever test I conduct may be subject to a significant error, as much as 50%, and even with that considered I suspect we are a bit short.

I'm relearning coach batteries again, but I think I stumbled on something.. I'll give you a hint..

Anybody ever wonder why EC chose to install 2 Traction batteries?

These aren't the same as a golf cart battery.

I'm still researching, and have a call into EC to confirm, so I will post what I learn.

Thanks again guys,

-Matt

757driver · 08-18-2016, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt D

Thanks Don, I forgot that. I've been thinking whatever test I conduct may be subject to a significant error, as much as 50%, and even with that considered I suspect we are a bit short.

I'm relearning coach batteries again, but I think I stumbled on something.. I'll give you a hint..

Anybody ever wonder why EC chose to install 2 Traction batteries?

These aren't the same as a golf cart battery.

I'm still researching, and have a call into EC to confirm, so I will post what I learn.

Thanks again guys,

-Matt

Matt,

Sounds interesting, can't wait to hear what you find out.

Matt D · 08-18-2016, 07:52 PM

Don, the Discover specs refer to a 80% DOD in a few places, which seems to support what I learned elsewhere. Essentially that "Traction" batteries are capable of being discharged further than ordinary deep cycle batteries.

Now, I'm not saying I agree with this, especially when considering the total cycles Discover suggests for a 80% DOD (500), and a 50% DOD (1000).

The extra 30% comes with a longevity price. Think of each 80% DOD cycle as you would a full thrust T/O, yes it's OK and the engine won't fail right away, but it certainly impacts the time on wing before a HS.

The thing I'm contemplating is: assuming the use of this 80% DOD is something I eventually got comfortable with, how often would I be likely to use it fully? Right off the bat, I can think of only one or two opportunities to exercise this capability, per year.

Best Regards,

-Matt

Old Scout · 08-18-2016, 08:31 PM

Probably sounds like big coach envy on my part--fair enough--but a 450ISL pushing a 49,000 lbs gross weight coach doesn't leave much of a HP to lbs ratio to work with. Considering that the Cornerstone weights in at a max 53,000 but has a 600hp engine- that's a big difference. Also hearing concerns that front axle/tire weight on some models of ECs might be close to or exceeding limits. Definitely want to match front axle tire air pressures with axle load, once you get it weighed...

edgray · 08-19-2016, 07:33 AM

Back to the suspension dump question, is the auto level feature of the Equalizer system supposed to put the jacks down and THEN dump the suspension? I'm worried that the forward motion after the dump begins is going to bend the jacks, not to mention the grinding noise as the pads try to slide forward as the coach settles. Is there an adjustment needed?
,

757driver · 08-19-2016, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt D

Don, the Discover specs refer to a 80% DOD in a few places, which seems to support what I learned elsewhere. Essentially that "Traction" batteries are capable of being discharged further than ordinary deep cycle batteries.

Now, I'm not saying I agree with this, especially when considering the total cycles Discover suggests for a 80% DOD (500), and a 50% DOD (1000).

The extra 30% comes with a longevity price. Think of each 80% DOD cycle as you would a full thrust T/O, yes it's OK and the engine won't fail right away, but it certainly impacts the time on wing before a HS.

The thing I'm contemplating is: assuming the use of this 80% DOD is something I eventually got comfortable with, how often would I be likely to use it fully? Right off the bat, I can think of only one or two opportunities to exercise this capability, per year.

Best Regards,

-Matt

Matt,

I agree the Discover dry traction AGM batteries can take the abuse, but at a price (as you pointed out) in terms of life cycles. I would not be worried about the occasional dip towards 70-80% DOD, BUT i personally would not want to do it more than a few times a year.

Keep in mind also that Discover batteries that get (shall we say abused) to this level of discharge on a frequent basis should be charged with a IUI Balance charger which the Magnum is not capable of.

Another question for you, when you did your test for how long your batteries last was the inverter panel reading "Float" or "Full"? If it was "Full" your batteries can be down as much as 10% depending on where in the "Full" cycle the inverter was at. For better and more complete charging switch SET 09 Final Charge from "Multi" to "Float".

757driver · 08-19-2016, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edgray

Back to the suspension dump question, is the auto level feature of the Equalizer system supposed to put the jacks down and THEN dump the suspension? I'm worried that the forward motion after the dump begins is going to bend the jacks, not to mention the grinding noise as the pads try to slide forward as the coach settles. Is there an adjustment needed?
,

Yes, jacks down (but not all the way with full weight) then suspension dump. Talk to Entegra, your jacks are getting too firmly planted prior to your air dumping. The fix (which many have had done) is to install a new re-programmed Equalizer box (located on the roof of the basement just behind the batteries in the first compartment) that allows the air to more fully dump prior to the jacks firmly planting. Another symptom of the poorly programmed box is the rear of the coach has trouble leveling and stays higher up than it needs to and produces an Excessive Slope error on the Equalizer key pad.

edgray · 08-19-2016, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 757driver

Yes, jacks down (but not all the way with full weight) then suspension dump. Talk to Entegra, your jacks are getting too firmly planted prior to your air dumping. The fix (which many have had done) is to install a new re-programmed Equalizer box (located on the roof of the basement just behind the batteries in the first compartment) that allows the air to more fully dump prior to the jacks firmly planting. Another symptom of the poorly programmed box is the rear of the coach has trouble leveling and stays higher up than it needs to and produces an Excessive Slope error on the Equalizer key pad.

Thank you! I figured this cannot be right, and I often get the "excessive slope" light, even when on a relatively level site. I just use retract all, and then get it as level as possible using the individual position buttons. I'll add this to my growing list of items that need attention

Gary.Jones · 08-20-2016, 06:51 AM

Matt:

Looping back to your question about potentially needing ECM updates on a new coach. The answer to that is yes. I needed a new radiator within a 2 or 3 months of getting the coach brand new from the factory, and started having problems with engine faults within the first two months, so needed to be at a Cummins Coach Care facility to get all of that work figured out. The Cummins shop updated my ECM with three sets of updates they said were needed between when the Cummins was installed on the chassis and the current time (which was 2 months from delivery), so, I would not be at all surprised that there are ECM updates, but I also would be quite surprised that it would lead to significant improvement in basic engine operation (vast increases in horsepower or fuel efficiency). The biggest changes I have noted on my coach are a great improvement in mileage as the Cummins has learned how I travel and drive.

Gary

Matt D · 08-20-2016, 10:27 AM

Regarding the batteries, I spent the better part of yesterday speaking with reps from Discover, and EC. Both agree the only way I can accurately test these batteries for condition is to perform a timed discharge test to 10A! Both parties want to know how long it takes to get to 10A at a given known load. Discover uses 75A, EC uses around 25A indicated (probably closer to 35A actual).

Beginning at Float, indicating 12.9 on the Magnum, I kicked the shore power off, and adjusted the fixed loads to achieve as close to 15A as possible, knowing the inverter is quietly burning up approximately 10A to operate, combined for a total demand of 25A. Using 25A, we should see 915 minutes to totally discharged.

Frankly, the best I could do was 20A indicated with the fridge operating. So let's assume we saw between 20A and 30A total for the duration of the test.

I set an automatic lamp timer and plugged it in to an inverted outlet. The theory was, I knew when I removed shore power, and the timer would stop when the inverter hit the 10A LBCO that everyone was asking for. More on the timer later.

Interesting thing, turning all lights on inside and out didn't make a measurable change to the indicated amperage draw. I know it was there, the Magnum simply can't read a number that small, or its within the tolerance of error between indications.

I removed shore power at 2000 and at 12.9V, set the timer and the loads and went inside. Ambient temps around 84F.

I checked it at 0600 and much to my surprise the voltage was hanging in there at 11.8V and the indicated draw was down to 13A. It looked like the refrigerator compressor was not operating. I verified this by opening both doors of the fridge, dumping the cool air. Then the draw increased to 23A with the compressor operating. Ambient temps around 77F.

The timer never stopped and was indicating 0600. We were still happily inverting 10 hours into the test.

Now, I know many of you are hopping up and down thinking "I'd never go that far with my batteries", and I agree with you.

However, I needed to verify the correct function of these batteries, and to also determine if they achieve our goal of 6-8 hours at minimal use. If not, I would need to fight for new batteries and supplement those with 2 more.

As it turns out, I discontinued the test as I'm satisfied these batteries are just fine, and that they meet our needs. I didn't feel the need to draw the batteries down all the way once we'd satisfied our objectives.

In short, I'm favorably impressed with the performance of just 2 L16s. While I appreciate my test was far from perfect, I'm comfortable with the results and how it impacts our usage.

-Matt

Matt D · 08-20-2016, 10:33 AM

Gary, thank you for that. Now I gotta just get in to the shop.

-Matt

757driver · 08-22-2016, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt D

Regarding the batteries, I spent the better part of yesterday speaking with reps from Discover, and EC. Both agree the only way I can accurately test these batteries for condition is to perform a timed discharge test to 10A! Both parties want to know how long it takes to get to 10A at a given known load. Discover uses 75A, EC uses around 25A indicated (probably closer to 35A actual).

Beginning at Float, indicating 12.9 on the Magnum, I kicked the shore power off, and adjusted the fixed loads to achieve as close to 15A as possible, knowing the inverter is quietly burning up approximately 10A to operate, combined for a total demand of 25A. Using 25A, we should see 915 minutes to totally discharged.

Frankly, the best I could do was 20A indicated with the fridge operating. So let's assume we saw between 20A and 30A total for the duration of the test.

I set an automatic lamp timer and plugged it in to an inverted outlet. The theory was, I knew when I removed shore power, and the timer would stop when the inverter hit the 10A LBCO that everyone was asking for. More on the timer later.

Interesting thing, turning all lights on inside and out didn't make a measurable change to the indicated amperage draw. I know it was there, the Magnum simply can't read a number that small, or its within the tolerance of error between indications.

I removed shore power at 2000 and at 12.9V, set the timer and the loads and went inside. Ambient temps around 84F.

I checked it at 0600 and much to my surprise the voltage was hanging in there at 11.8V and the indicated draw was down to 13A. It looked like the refrigerator compressor was not operating. I verified this by opening both doors of the fridge, dumping the cool air. Then the draw increased to 23A with the compressor operating. Ambient temps around 77F.

The timer never stopped and was indicating 0600. We were still happily inverting 10 hours into the test.

Now, I know many of you are hopping up and down thinking "I'd never go that far with my batteries", and I agree with you.

However, I needed to verify the correct function of these batteries, and to also determine if they achieve our goal of 6-8 hours at minimal use. If not, I would need to fight for new batteries and supplement those with 2 more.

As it turns out, I discontinued the test as I'm satisfied these batteries are just fine, and that they meet our needs. I didn't feel the need to draw the batteries down all the way once we'd satisfied our objectives.

In short, I'm favorably impressed with the performance of just 2 L16s. While I appreciate my test was far from perfect, I'm comfortable with the results and how it impacts our usage.

-Matt

Matt,

A few observations. If your test began with a Float voltage of 12.9v that is low even taking into account the temperature of 84F, perhaps it was in Full charge mode (which can be down as much as 10%). Float for AGM2 is 13.5v.

When you mentioned 10A LBCO I assume you meant 10v LBCO.

Any lights you turn on inside or outside the coach will not show up on the Magnum inverter panel as these are direct DC loads straight from the batteries and are not inverted loads.

Glad your batteries are both performing properly. The fact that you are satisfied with how they perform for your situation is what is most important. 11.8v under a load is not that far under a 50% DOD Discover AGM battery of 12.0v under a load. You were perhaps 65-70% discharged, not that bad on an occasional basis. Still, it would be nice to have the extra 2 batteries, I would still plead your case to the CFO.

Flynryan15 · 08-26-2016, 06:00 PM

I know you guys are deep in systems class here, I see it is pneumatics, hydraulics and electrical day. I have a beer system question :-). Is the basement fridge/freezer not available on a Aspire? Can one be added aftermarket? Would hate to have everyone parading through the coach during a tailgate every time they want a new beer.