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Old 11-13-2018, 10:23 AM   #1
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ACC Adaptive Cruise Control and CMS Collision Mitigation

This is really long but introduces new findings that are not common knowledge.

Many people probably have already read my rants about both of these systems that are now included on our 2019 Cornerstone and I think the Anthem. Those that have, already know that I actively dislike both (e.g., HATE) them and their operation.

However, now that I have driven this coach in excess olf 10,000 miles in the past 3 months, I have learned more things about it.... some of them good, and some of them terrible.

The good: I have driven this coach now in some very heavy traffic conditions such as I-95 through DC area and Virginia..... 4 lanes, 65 mph, cars and trucks everywhere. Also have come to some heavy congestion on same roads with speeds from zero to crawling to 20 mph. In those conditions, if you don't mind leaving 2 or 3 three car lengths in front of you at a dead stop, the CMS system and ACC will do much of that coach control for you.... (But certainly not all.... dont think you can fall asleep or not pay attention) Everyone will love you in other lanes as all that distance in front of you is where every driver in the left or right lane that thinks your lane is better will use that space to insert themselves in front of you. Now that a car has inserted itself in front of you, the system will slow you down or hit the jake to drop you back more, which then permits the next car in an adjacent lane to insert itself into your lane, and the CMS will drop you back again.... I had 4 or 5 cars do that in succession.... as they inserted, the system dropped me back each time. I didnt like that! When you are at 20-30 mph lets say, the ACC will feed your diesel and keep you behind the guy in front of you a very safe distance and my system seems to reduce your speed most by switching on the Jake brake to slow you down rather than apply the brakes. But, if you are the type of driver that likes to have the coach do all that speed regulating and braking and speeding up for you...... then, that may be one place where it makes some sense. I still like to drive.

The Bad: I really hate the system at highway speeds. I can make the distance that the Wabco OnGuard systems starts to get concered about a moving car supposedly in the lane in front of you from long, to medium, to short. Long is really long, and you will find your coach slowing down and "following" a car or truck so far in front of you that you have not even mentally processed that it is any issue to you at all... I like the concept of "Signal Detection". In Signal Detection, there are stimuli that have "signal value" which means that they have "meaning" to you. Then there are stimuli that are considered "noise". Noise is any stimulus that is irrelevant to the task at hand (eg. road signs or trees beside the road). Sometimes, noise can become signal such as when a tree has fallen onto your lane.

Now, the way I drive is that unless the car that is 20 car lengths in front of me is at a dead stop or moving 10 mph on an interstate, he is largely irrelevant to my driving (noise). If he is at a dead stop or driving 10, he becomes signal at some point and I have to pay attention. I dont know the actual distance, but the ACC long setting defines a car that is moving slower than you so far in the distance that you think is noise, as signal and slows you down. The real issue with ACC is if you are closing on the car (decreasing the distance between you and the signal), then the system defines the car as "signal", not noise, even if it is very far in front of you. So, the ACC does a lot of slowing and speeding based on objects that you, as the driver, probably are not worried about at all. Now you can make the distance shorter and that helps, but it still defines as a problem something that you would not.

Here is another example, you have decided that the distance in front of you is clear enough and you want to move into another lane and pass the car in your lane. You have to step on the diesel pedal and override the system. Since there are cars in the lane you want to move into, you want to get closer to the guy in front of you before you can move into the left lane. You can do that, by stepping on the gas pedal and overriding the system but as soon as you do that, you will be gaining on that car and your alarm will start loudly blaring repeatedly until you successfully move into the left lane and pass. But you better not be gaining on the car in front of you in the left lane, either once you lane change or it will start screaming at you also. Very annoying and completely unnecessary.

The Terrible/Even Worse: I dislike the Adaptive Cruise Control so much that I almost always defeat the ACC. I have found that the only way I can defeat the ACC is to follow this procedure. I get to the speed I want to drive with ACC on and set the Cruise speed to 62. ACC is now controlling. I then wait until a place where the cruise control is not actually doing anything as in rolling down a long downgrade or hill, and then I can put the joy stick to the ACC position on the dash, and press down on the joy stick and hold it until a message that says "ACC Defeated" or something like that. At that point, you get a new message in the warning section at the bottom of the Valid digital dash that the ACC System has been defeated. That is good. However, now at least 4 separate times, while driving on interstates, and with "Old Fashioned Classic Cruise Control (OFCCC)" is regulating my speed to 62, first the ACC system (which is supposedly not working) will throw a code and I get an ACC fault and failure warning on the digital dash. Soon after, I then get a CMS Fault indication (goes amber) and the CMS says it has crashed (but in fact the CMS system is still working, but OFCCC does not work and ACC does not work). Then the system starts telling you other things like "essential data is missing" "system faulted" (or some such wording) and it stays faulted for the rest of your drive. I called Spartan and in short, their advice is: "We dont know anything about the operation of your Wabco OnGuard system.... call them or go to a dealer to get it fixed".... not any dealer (forget Cummins Coach Care, and many others) as the facility has to have Wabco's Toolbox software to be able to read any codes or make any adjustments. So I made an apointment with such a repair facility and waited 5 days to get an appointment. The long and short is: They really dont have any knowledge about the WabCo system either.... zero..... "NADA" .... its Greek to them. Strangely, on the way to the repair facility, it all starts working again.... No reason..... just fired up the Cummins and noticed all the faults had cleared the dash. Not good! Always best to get to the repair facility with a system that is still actually crashed, not just, recently crashed. In short, in 3 days, they found no codes set, no reason that it failed, or what to do to prevent it from crashing again. No Joy!!!

So I put more miles on the system.... same situation 200 miles later, and the same thing.... everything started to fault and the system shut itself down. Called Wabco again and this time CS guy said something new... he said that what is going on is that the system is monitoring signals from a whole lot of things such as... 1.) the speed each drive wheel are turning (to detect "spinning or sliding), 2.) whether your turn signals are working and blinking properly, and 20 or 30 other things/systems. If any of those signals don't arrive or show what the computer anticipates, that is the reason for a system fault. He said the following: "If the system finds that it is missing data that it needs from anywhere in the system, it does not want to be responsible for you crashing or running into someone in front of you so rather than work with incomplete data, it shuts itself down. He had no cure other than go to a service center (I already wasted a week and accomplished nothing doing that). So I again drove for a while with nothing of the ACC or OFCCC working.

Now, I read everything that I could get my hands on about this Wabco OnGuard system on line, and I remembered that in one sentence near the end of a brag sheet on the system, was the instruction of something like...If the system shows a fault, pull off the road at a safe place and shut down the engine and it will reset/reboot. So, the next time it failed, I did that. No Joy!! Still faulted... no reset. Then it did it again hundreds of miles later, and I was at an RV park with the Cummins shut down... days later, fired up and guess what? All faults cleared. Why is that happening.? So more hundreds of miles with it working but ACC defeated (using OFCCC) and it crashed again. In thinking about it, I thought that the last time it faulted and we shut down at an RV park, I needed to reboot the whole 12 volt system for another problem (Chuck is right.... ALWAYS try that for any problem on these computer controlled coaches), and that happened days before I fired up, and the faults were again gone.

Sooooooooo, this time when all this stuff again faulted, I pulled over, shut down the Cummins, restarted....... nothing.... Everything still faulted. So, next I shut down the Cummins, and also rebooted the coach 12 volt system by killing the Salesman Switch (inside the door) and fired back up, and all the fault codes were GONE !!!! Eureka !!!!! You not only need to shut down the Cummins and ignition, but you need to reboot the whole darn coach, and that clears the fault codes.

So, I drove more hundreds of miles, and it happened again.... time to try to replicate the finding.... Pull off..... shut down Cummins..... reboot coach 12 Volts.... Fire up, and that cleared the faults and whole system including defeated ACC (in other words OFCCC) worked. Replication!! So that is the new revelation.

Now, why does it fault? I can tell you that Wabco, Spartan, and Cummins dealers even with the right software have no clue at all. Its a mystery to them. Brobox has recently arm wrestled with Spartan over his digital dash and complained that the system are so new that no one knows what they are supposed to do or what makes them fail. That is absolutely true with the new Wabco OnGuard RADAR system. To me, not only is it's very purpose annoying, but the lack of knowledge and understanding even by the comanies that sell this stuff, or decide that we really must have this innovation included on our coaches is simpy amazing.

However, if your system fails and starts throwing all sorts of fault codes, try shuting down the Cummins ignition and engine and then rebooting the coach 12 volt system completely. I still have no idea why my system is failing but I now know how not to wait a week for an appointment at a shop and find nothing wrong with the system, and I can cure it myself.

Now to figure out why it faults to begin with, and of course, how to defeat the whole damn system permanently while leaving OFCCC operational...

Gary
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Old 11-13-2018, 01:27 PM   #2
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Oh, a couple of clarifications.

The reason that you don't want to go to Cummins Coach Care or any other Cummins certified repair facility to try to figure out problems with the Wabco OnGuard RADAR system is that Cummins does not allow their shops to put any software on their computers other than Cummins software (this was told to me by Spartan). So, unless they have multiple laptops (which would seem not to be an insurmountable problem), a certified Cummins shop cannot help you. You need to ask before you make an appointment. Do they have Toolkit software?

When the OnGuard system faults, and it has faulted when using the ACC cruise in addition to when I am using the OFCCC cruise system, the system just seems to stop working first.... it is no longer controlling your speed, and your speed starts falling off... Then the ACC fault appears and then the CMS fault appears. Nothing interesting or unusual is happening at the time.... just driving down the road, and then it stops functioning.

Also, even though the messages tell you the CMS system has faulted/failed, in fact it appears to still be working, but only the CMS stuff and maybe only partially. I had a bone-head pull back into my lane unusually close to me when all my system was faulted, and the CMS never-the-less applied the brakes or the jake to slow me down before I could get my foot over to the brake pedal.

I have no way of knowing if the reason that I am having trouble with this system is something that is wrong with my specific coach system, or if it is a glitch with everyone's ACC / CMS system. I would be interested in knowing if this is unique to me, or common. Now that I understand more about the system, I am going to spend a lot more time on the Phone with the Wabco CS people to see what I can tell them, and them tell me.

Different issue: when you are using the ACC to control your speed on an interstate, you will notice a brief minor jerk sensation. I have had that when for some reason maybe a car pulls in front of me in a lane change very close to me (like it seems more drivers are willing to do these days).... you feel a jerk. I thought it was momentarily kicking in the jake, but I am pretty sure that I know now what it is. The Wabco OnGuard system literature says that it gives you three types of signals: a visual signal (the dash display decided to turn different colors), an auditory signal (the blaring alarm beep that I have talked so much about), and a "haptic" signal. Had to look that one up, but it is a very brief touch of the brake system which makes a very brief and small jerk (feels like a hard Allison transmission gear shift). When it happens, you notice it because you have done nothing to make it happen.... so you pay attention ("signality").

I'll bet others are learning new things about all of this, and I hope that you will share.

Gary
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Old 11-13-2018, 09:15 PM   #3
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I realize that I made a mistake in the first post above..... The information that Cummins does not permit any software on their service center's computers that is not Cummin's proprietary software did not come from Spartan.... it came from the Harrisburg Cummins Coach Care Service Director. Sorry. I remembered the source at dinner tonight.

Gary
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Old 11-14-2018, 12:58 AM   #4
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Thanks for the info. I also have problems with the CMS and have been frustrated by the lack of information available.

On Several occasions I have been able to get the cruise to re-enable after the WABCO has errored by pushing a sequence of buttons on the steering wheel. However it seems to be inconsistent much like the operation of the CMS itself.

If I ever figure out what re-enables the system without restarting the coach I'll post it here.
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Old 11-14-2018, 07:55 AM   #5
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If you don't like the CMS or the ACC I think the only real current solution is to get on a freightliner chassis and at the same level coach that would be the Newmar London-Aire line.

https://newmarcorp-8c1e.kxcdn.com/wp...hure-combo.pdf

From the brochure below you can option the Spartan Chassis but the standard is the Freightliner. You may be able to order the Spartan Chassis without the OnGuard though? I doubt Entegra will ever option the CMS and ACC on their coaches. I've heard that NIRVC has ordered all their stock Newmars on Freightliner Chassis's for the next year.
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Old 11-14-2018, 08:36 AM   #6
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Magic Carpet: WOW....!!! I heard that rumor too, but assumed it was not true (That NIRVC has dropped the Spartan Chassis on its ordered Newmars). Do you have a fairly definitive reason that decision was made?

I KNOW from all the calls that I have made dealing with this issue that the ACC and CMS systems are a major complaint heard by the Customer Service people.... they all commiserate with me and tell me that they hear this all day (for some reason, I seem to be the only one on iRV2 that is complaining loudly about it), but their hands are tied in giving me any data on how to resolve my complaints.

When I get off the road and back home, it will become my first order of business.... from simply disconnecting the RADAR transmitter in the front cap to starting to take other things apart, to finally exploring the cost of buying the software (or getting someone who has it to let me have access to it one night) with the intention of detuning the whole damn mess to the point that it no longer performs what it supposedly does..

And if it didnt coast me $100,000 to trade this coach in on a 2020 London Aire (if it doesn't have all this crap on it that I paid for but don't need), I would certainly do it. If I had known that I would dislike actually driving this coach as much as I now dislike it, I would not have bought it. I was told I could turn it off... that was partially true. I can turn off ACC. I cannot turn off CMS, which is the worst part. Now..... let me be clear: I have no problem with Entegra and this coach otherwise (well..... a few). The Cornerstone is a fine machine so far in almost every respect other than this annoying system. I would buy it again easily without the WABCO system.

I will likely keep this coach but try to find a way to make the WABCO part die a quick death. AND THIS ALL COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED BY SIMPLY INCLUDING AN OWNER CHOICE to have it installed or not, or cheaper .... an OFF SWITCH!!!!. It would be better to have it an owner choice on the coach because I am sure it is a costly addition to the coach. Why pay for something and then turn it off? Chuck says he likes it. Others probably like it too. I am certain others dislike it as much as I do given what the CS people are telling me, but for some reason are not chiming in on this issue here. However, an Off switch would solve the whole darn problem. Simple

Gary
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Old 11-14-2018, 09:53 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary.Jones View Post
Magic Carpet: WOW....!!! I heard that rumor too, but assumed it was not true (That NIRVC has dropped the Spartan Chassis on its ordered Newmars). Do you have a fairly definitive reason that decision was made?

I KNOW from all the calls that I have made dealing with this issue that the ACC and CMS systems are a major complaint heard by the Customer Service people.... they all commiserate with me and tell me that they hear this all day (for some reason, I seem to be the only one on iRV2 that is complaining loudly about it), but their hands are tied in giving me any data on how to resolve my complaints.

When I get off the road and back home, it will become my first order of business.... from simply disconnecting the RADAR transmitter in the front cap to starting to take other things apart, to finally exploring the cost of buying the software (or getting someone who has it to let me have access to it one night) with the intention of detuning the whole damn mess to the point that it no longer performs what it supposedly does..

And if it didnt coast me $100,000 to trade this coach in on a 2020 London Aire (if it doesn't have all this crap on it that I paid for but don't need), I would certainly do it. If I had known that I would dislike actually driving this coach as much as I now dislike it, I would not have bought it. I was told I could turn it off... that was partially true. I can turn off ACC. I cannot turn off CMS, which is the worst part. Now..... let me be clear: I have no problem with Entegra and this coach otherwise (well..... a few). The Cornerstone is a fine machine so far in almost every respect other than this annoying system. I would buy it again easily without the WABCO system.

I will likely keep this coach but try to find a way to make the WABCO part die a quick death. AND THIS ALL COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED BY SIMPLY INCLUDING AN OWNER CHOICE to have it installed or not, or cheaper .... an OFF SWITCH!!!!. It would be better to have it an owner choice on the coach because I am sure it is a costly addition to the coach. Why pay for something and then turn it off? Chuck says he likes it. Others probably like it too. I am certain others dislike it as much as I do given what the CS people are telling me, but for some reason are not chiming in on this issue here. However, an Off switch would solve the whole darn problem. Simple

Gary
Have to say.... I really like it and would NEVER buy another coach without it. As a matter of fact, itís the main reason I went for a Cornerstone and not an Anthem. I guess different strokes for different folks! Haha.
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Old 11-14-2018, 11:32 AM   #8
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Have to say.... I really like it and would NEVER buy another coach without it. As a matter of fact, itís the main reason I went for a Cornerstone and not an Anthem. I guess different strokes for different folks! Haha.

I have to say that I like it also. I haven't had a single problem except when it faulted out in a heavy rain storm. Other than that, it preforms well and it seems my style of driving is in sync with its control features. Fortunately for those of us with 2017's there is a way to turn the thing off and still have cruise control. It was documented somewhere else on the forum.
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Old 11-16-2018, 01:09 PM   #9
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Just a quick note. CMS was in error condition yesterday when I started the coach. Could not get it to stay off. Along with the error on the WABCO, I also had the side collision proximity lights (both sides dash and mirrors) blinking on and off.

Wasn't going too far (100 mi) so figured I'd be on the foot the whole way. I have pushed the cruise on the button before and had it reset. So, about 20m minutes into the drive I turned the cruise on and hit set and the light came on!

No idea why it worked. The WABCO and all other alarms were still activated, but the cruise was working.

Bottom line; give it some time and try reactivating the cruise. Might work!
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Old 11-16-2018, 01:51 PM   #10
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I have to say that I like it also. I haven't had a single problem except when it faulted out in a heavy rain storm. Other than that, it preforms well and it seems my style of driving is in sync with its control features. Fortunately for those of us with 2017's there is a way to turn the thing off and still have cruise control. It was documented somewhere else on the forum.
Yep, as I have previously posted for the 2017-18 cms deactivation hold the up and down arrow on the cms, turn the key on, release the up and down arrow keys and start the motorhome. CMS will be deactivated and cruise control will be operational.
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Old 11-20-2018, 02:02 PM   #11
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I have to say that I like it also. I haven't had a single problem except when it faulted out in a heavy rain storm. Other than that, it preforms well and it seems my style of driving is in sync with its control features. Fortunately for those of us with 2017's there is a way to turn the thing off and still have cruise control. It was documented somewhere else on the forum.
I have the OnGuard system in a 2018 Newmar New Aire. In 11,000 miles I have had 2 system crashes, like you one was in heavy rain. Otherwise I have grown to respect the system.

The bottom line is you have to drive the coach the way OnGuard wants you to in traffic. For me it has been an 11,000 mile teaching program to retrain my "muscle memory" to drive in traffic in such a way that I don't get those annoying alerts. Ironically I have learned driving the way OnGuard demands is really is much safer. Must be part of the plan.
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Old 11-21-2018, 05:28 PM   #12
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This is a brief update. I will do this more extensively in the future. However, in brief:

On my way back from Jamestown to PA, the OnGuard system failed completely. Literally 6 or 8 different fault codes and a complete crash of the system. Many of the fault codes are things like "RADAR SHUTDOWN", "Missing data from transmission", "Un-anticapated variability in wheel speed data" (the speedometer was moving from 62 mph to 0 mph and back to 62 mph in 5 seconds. Then the transmission started to really shift very hard, and worse, the Cummins began to pulse in power when climbing hills. Talking to Spartan the entire time, and they say that the the faults will not cause a red engine shut down CEL, but the failure of the entire system made it difficult to travel. Spartan's advice was to get quickly to a facility that had "Toolbox" software and try to figure out what is going on. So, I diverted from my intended path and headed to Hagerstown (Spartan has NO facilities anywhere near DC to deal with these sorts of issues). Limped into Hagerstown and my customer contact at Spartan is a great guy (Dave and Shane) and put one of their high level techs on line with Hagerstown repair center. However, it appears that they don't have the correct version of ToolKit and will have to get it, so after 2 days at the dealer, I have now moved to an RV park and I am essentially "dead in the water" at least until Monday (5 days from now) and even then, if the software is correct and updated, then still will need to decide if the problem is the RADAR unit and RADAR-CPU alone, or if it is a problem in a wiring bundle. In any case, at best, they will figure out the problem by Monday and then order in a RADAR unit to be delivered to Hagerstown (overnight?) and then the repair. I am girded for this repair to be from 7 to 10 days stuck on the road broken down. I am not optimistic I will be stranded only 7 days.. I think it easily could be 10 to 14 days stranded. This also follows a day at a Freightliner repair facility getting Cummins engine updates (5 or 6 updates (bug fixes))

I am TRUELY AMAZED! A 5 month old coach and I am stranded on the road for a week to a week and a half because we can't figure out what is wrong, or how to fix it, or what needs to be fixed. This has been a trip from hell. These coaches incorporate sophisticated devices that are connected into an amazing array of other systems (why would a failed RADAR system cause my Cummins to pulse, or my speedometer to fail to track speed accurately, and even cause the inverters to not accurately show what they are doing (I have to reboot the system after the engine is running to get the inverters/chargers to charge correctly??????????????????????????? )), but all of those things are the case. Technology has gone too far...............It exceeds our knowledge! --- ---

Gary
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Old 11-21-2018, 06:13 PM   #13
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Technology has gone too far...............It exceeds our knowledge! --- ---

Gary
Just a guess but I'll bet this has nothing to do with OnGuard. Sure sounds like a faulty wheel speed sensor.
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Old 11-21-2018, 06:32 PM   #14
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That may be a part of it. However, there are other faults which indicate other problems. You may be right, but both Spartan and the local techs at this time feel that the problem is communicating accurate information to whatever EMS or EMSes are processing the information, or the EMSes being able to process the data accurately internally (the EMS or EMSes are faulty). I, personally, don't care.... I just am anxious to get it understood and back on my way. And the diagnostic software that supposedly will figure it out, is not a common software, and it is not held by all, or many, Spartan or Cummins repair facilities, and even if the facility has it, the people that need to use it are unfamiliar with it. The only people that think they understand all of this are the Customer Service people for WABCO and they need data which few seem able to give them. The ToolBox software is used to diagnose trailer braking problems, onGuardACTIVE, and 3 or 4 other Wabco Products.

I would really be relieved if the problem was as simple as that.... as I think it would be easily resolved. And Spartan and Wabco are not about sending a RADAR unit to me and cable assemblies to get me going, unless there is conclusive proof that indicates it is the only problem.

Gary
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Gary and Dee, Zowie and Bowie (traveling cat sibs)
2019 Cornerstone 45B, X15-605hp, Imperial, Spartan K3,
2013 Honda CR-V toad, Demco Excali-Bar II,
Demco Baseplate, Demco Toad Light system, 73 de W5Fi
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