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Old 10-23-2016, 07:50 AM   #1
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AquaHot Diesel Burn rates as a function of temperature

The last couple of nights and mornings have been cool enough at Camp Entegra that I have turned on the AquaHot diesel burner for the first time this winter. Doing this reminded me of an issue that we discussed last year, which was, what is the burn rate of diesel when we use our AquaHot 450s. Knowing the burn rate gives us a good idea how long we can camp with the fuel that we have and the cost of using the diesel burner as a heat source versus maybe the fireplace or a couple of electric heaters (on low power so you are not pulling too much out of the coach). So, I searched for and found the thread that dealt with all this last year, and am going to provide the link if you are a new owner, or new to iRV2 and are facing your first winter of travel with the diesel AquaHot running or maybe dry camping, like at Quartzsite. Here is the link.

http://www.irv2.com/forums/f278/aqua...mp-267040.html

Drive safe

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Old 10-23-2016, 11:22 AM   #2
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Gary, I just re-read your old post and found what looks like an inconsistency. In your example, you concluded you were burning .12 gallons per hour. You then said this equates to 8.3 gallons per day. I calculate .12 X 24 hours to be 2.88 gallons per day, which @ $3 per gallon would mean spending $8.64 per day or $0.36 per hour on heat.

Which is correct?
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Old 10-23-2016, 03:44 PM   #3
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Mark

I think that I said at least twice that I would appreciate someone else following my logic and calculating numbers to see if I was right. I believe that I did make a mistake in calculating the cost per hour (or day) at 28 degrees. It seemed the cost per day was too high, and I see that I multiplied everything by 3 for no reason. At a burn rate of .12 gallons per hour and a diesel price of $3.00 / gallon, that would calculate out to $8.64 per day. I don't understand now why I multiplied again, but I like your logic and your numbers and I also like the more reasonable cost per day. It seemed too high to me at the time.

Thanks for pointing out the error. I believe your calculation is right on cost per day ($8.64)

Gary
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Old 10-23-2016, 08:15 PM   #4
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Do people really calculate how much it costs to warm their coach when it's cold or am I just different? When I'm cold in the coach I can care less how much it costs to heat it or cool it when it's hot. I just don't understand why one would go to the extent to all these calculations in a $500K +/- motor home. If they are counting pennies that much...
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Old 10-24-2016, 06:01 AM   #5
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Ron:

You bet I do !!! And I have no embarrassment for being interested in the issue.

However, as someone who laid out nearly $400,000 for this product, I was not worried about the actual cost... the issue that is relevant is the relative cost.The issue was - In 20 something degrees, does the cost of me running the AquaHot for 24 hours come close to the cost of a $30 RV spot for one or two nights? What is the cost of boondocking beside the interstate versus taking the time and effort to pull into an RV park maybe a half hour off the road? Actually, the math mistake that Mark caught is the relevant one, as that incorrect number indicated that the cost was pretty much of a wash..... The correct answer indicated that it is less than 10 dollars to stay beside the road and $20 cheaper than the RV park. So, I think it is a very legitimate issue to consider and I am amazed that you could care less. Even if it is a simple intellectual interest..... I wonder how much it costs to run the AquaHot in X ambient temperature. I would find that interesting in its own right. If you don't, then fine..... Just press the "gas" burner and let it fly. That is not the way that I am built.... I like to understand how things work. That's JMHO, but it is mine. If its not yours.... fine.

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Old 10-24-2016, 07:26 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary.Jones View Post
Ron:

You bet I do !!! And I have no embarrassment for being interested in the issue.

However, as someone who laid out nearly $400,000 for this product, I was not worried about the actual cost... the issue that is relevant is the relative cost.The issue was - In 20 something degrees, does the cost of me running the AquaHot for 24 hours come close to the cost of a $30 RV spot for one or two nights? What is the cost of boondocking beside the interstate versus taking the time and effort to pull into an RV park maybe a half hour off the road? Actually, the math mistake that Mark caught is the relevant one, as that incorrect number indicated that the cost was pretty much of a wash..... The correct answer indicated that it is less than 10 dollars to stay beside the road and $20 cheaper than the RV park. So, I think it is a very legitimate issue to consider and I am amazed that you could care less. Even if it is a simple intellectual interest..... I wonder how much it costs to run the AquaHot in X ambient temperature. I would find that interesting in its own right. If you don't, then fine..... Just press the "gas" burner and let it fly. That is not the way that I am built.... I like to understand how things work. That's JMHO, but it is mine. If its not yours.... fine.

Gary
Gary,

I'm not sure I understand. When you're in a campground with shore power do you only use the electric Aquahot burner? Is that sufficient to keep your coach warm? We haven't been in cold temps yet so I'm wondering what to plan for.
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Old 10-24-2016, 07:58 AM   #7
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Bill:

Most people say . (and I am in Middlebury and just heard PJ do his "talk") that heat pumps are very inefficient below 43 degrees. That conforms with our experience. Roughly at 40 degrees, the heat from heat pumps becomes modest. In some coaches (maybe all of ours??), the heat will switch from heat pumps to AquaHot automatically.

In addition, the electric water heater element in the AquaHot is not able to heat enough water to keep your coach cozy (remember the basement temperature and your holding tanks also) when the outside temperature is in the 30s. It has an effect, but the coach will be cold in the morning if the outside temp is lets say mid 30s and you are only using the electric element in the AquaHot. (You can also turn on the fireplace heater, but mine caught fire one time so I never let the fireplace heater run all night while we sleep). If the temp is much below 40, then you keep the coach cozy only by turning on the diesel burner in the AquaHot. The AquaHot diesel burner will keep you warm and cozy well below freezing (I think well below zero). So, if the ambient outside temp is in the mid 20s, you will definitely be using the AquaHot (if boondocked) and the diesel burner and the electric element if you are in an RV park with 50A service. I am in Middlebury, and all of us are hooked to 50A service and the ambient temp is in the mid 30s this morning, and virtually all the coaches here are burning the diesel section of the AquaHot.

Now, there are other ways. You can add to the heat that is produced by the electric element of the AquaHot with one or two small electric heaters. I have two 1600 watt small heaters, which can be run in a 800 watt mode and I have put one in the bedroom, and another in the living room area and run them all night (using the RV parks power to heat). However, you can apparently pull too much power with those space heaters (at 1600 W each). Again, one of PJ's stories was that an owner called with his inverters failing and off-line all the time. and repeatedly tripping the inverter circuit breakers. In debugging what was wrong, they found that he was running two 1600 watt space heaters and the two space heaters were blowing his inverter circuit breakers (in addition to some other AC loads). I'm not sure I have wrapped my head around why that would happen as I assumed that the inverters would not be powering the heaters if the coach was hanging on a 50A source, but that was his story.

Anyhow, yes, whether on shore power or boondocking, with temps in the 30s or below, you will in all likelihood need to be burning the diesel burner of the AquaHot. JMHO and JMExperience.

Gary

PS: My AquaHot 450D has a single electric element as does yours. My understanding is that the Cornerstone AquaHots may have 2 elements (not sure about that).
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Old 10-24-2016, 12:44 PM   #8
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All correct, but on the other hand, if you are in a campground and the temps are above the low 40's, you can keep the coach warm with the heat pumps and save your diesel for traveling! I find that the Aquahot is quieter and more comfortable, but using the heat pumps on the campground's electric power is certainly cheaper.

Since I hate making fuel stops, I use the heat pumps a lot. But Gary's calculations show that one night on Aquahot heat only uses a gallon or two of fuel, so I may rethink this.
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Old 10-24-2016, 02:49 PM   #9
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I like Gary and I'm sure many others here, use dry camping venues as part of our travel experience. We have ten years full time behind us and my idea of a day's travel is about 2/3s of what it once was, as my 70th birthday is tomorrow. I refuse to stop at a campground for just one night and if I'm heading for a destination much further than 400-450 miles, I over night somewhere. The idea of finding a campground, checking in and hooking up just to reverse the process the next AM is distasteful to me. Over our 10 years we have stayed at more WalMarts, truck stops, Cabela's, rest stops, casinos and road side pull outs than I can count or remember. Never had an unpleasant experience. It has nothing to do with saving money as by the time we run the generator and shop, it would be cheaper to pay for a site somewhere but the convenience is priceless.

(Mod Edits Made)
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Old 10-24-2016, 03:02 PM   #10
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(Mod edits)...

Last winter in Vegas was one of the coldest, hard freezes, for an extended period but our Aqua Hot performed great and it ran about 30 gallons over a three to almost four months of keeping the entire coach toasty with no freezing issues.
Knowledge is key and powerful! Something called systems management, which comes with a price.
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Old 10-24-2016, 03:31 PM   #11
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When I am traveling from Point A to Point B which is generally a considerable distance I never stop at any full service RV Park for one night. You will find me at a variety of FREE places along my route just for an overnight. If I get tired of driving day after day THEN I will find a park to stay in for TWO nights or more to catch up on laundry, rest and email.

WRT the Aqua Hot, there are only TWO Aqua-Hot models where you can comfortably heat your coach and have plenty of hot water for wash and showers just by using the Electric Assist solely. They are Model 600D and Model 675D. The 600D has TWO 2000 Watt Electric Heating Elements and the 675D has one 120 VAC 2000 Watt Element and one 240 VAC 4500 Watt Element whereas most other models only have one 120 VAC 1650 Watt Element.

The 450D is a "baby" Aqua-Hot model which has a smaller volume boiler tank and even when hooked to shore power it requires 1-2 gallons of diesel fuel per day for normal use due to the size of the boiler tank.

I personally don't worry about how much diesel it takes to stay warm when cold weather hits. I much prefer to use the hot water baseboard heat provided by the Aqua-Hot supplemented with two Lasko electric ceramic heaters as they are quiet and efficient compared to any heat pump.

To me it's not a matter of cost but of comfort.

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Old 10-24-2016, 03:33 PM   #12
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Please stay on-topic and do not engage in acts prohibited by the Community Rules.

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Old 10-24-2016, 04:56 PM   #13
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AquaHot Diesel Burn rates as a function of temperature

The reasons for burn time are in/out ambient temperatures, wind speed (WCF), and R-value plus leakage, against total CF of RV air volume, and so on. Perhaps an IR scan of the coach and some weather data captures could help?
IMHO, effective prediction of fuel use over extended periods can be only guessed. Sorry!
But estimated fuel use within bands of parameters would be downright nifty!
FWIW, burn times are noticeably longer if the burner nozzle is worn, and/or if the combustion chamber is caked with soot. I test the burner nozzle by putting blank white paper about 3 inches in front of the exhaust. If it shows spattering, the nozzle is spitting more than misting, which makes soot and increasingly inefficient fuel use.
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Old 10-25-2016, 05:32 AM   #14
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I like Gary and I'm sure many others here, use dry camping venues as part of our travel experience. We have ten years full time behind us and my idea of a day's travel is about 2/3s of what it once was, as my 70th birthday is tomorrow. I refuse to stop at a campground for just one night and if I'm heading for a destination much further than 400-450 miles, I over night somewhere. The idea of finding a campground, checking in and hooking up just to reverse the process the next AM is distasteful to me. Over our 10 years we have stayed at more WalMarts, truck stops, Cabela's, rest stops, casinos and road side pull outs than I can count or remember. Never had an unpleasant experience. It has nothing to do with saving money as by the time we run the generator and shop, it would be cheaper to pay for a site somewhere but the convenience is priceless.

(Mod Edits Made)
X2. It is all about convenience. Most Walmarts are within a mile or so of the highway. Most campgrounds are not.
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