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Old 12-21-2012, 10:06 AM   #15
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Hello Guys, thanks this is some great information. I'm just wondering, if I looked at the differences in cost vs payments alone it may discourage me from going with Cornerstone. However when I take in consideration that I could get a 20 year loan, this makes monthly payments only a few hundreds more than the Anthem. I love both coaches, I was initially drawn to Entegra by the Aspire, but I figure if I'm going to truly do this, I want to get the most reliable and appealing coach for the money. I was just looking at some of the end of the year close out prices for both the Anthem and the Cornerstone from Motorhome Specialist out of Texas and right now they Anthems (44 DLQ) going for $309,911.00 30% discount and Cornerstone (45 DLQ) going for $399,911.00 32% discount, difference of 90K and about $600.00 a month difference in payment on a 20 year loan. So I'm just wondering is this truly a good price or could I get it cheaper?

Tony
Tony, I would definitely shop around for prices rather than looking at a single dealer. Check with Mark Strollo at RVone (marks@rvone.com) or LazyDays in Tampa. If I was contacting dealers for the first time today with the intention to buy new and soon, I would be very interested in when the coach was manufactured especially if it is sitting on a dealers lot. Entegra recently reworked their A/C system and the new is significantly quieter than the old - so I'm told. I would also call Tadd Jenkins (Natl Sales) at Entegra and discuss the model differences with him first hand. When you are spending this kind of money, you want to draw on as many sources as you can, so your decision is the right one for you.

Finally, a question for you. How are you going to sanely wait two years before buying one of these babies? You obviously have more will power than I do!
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Old 12-21-2012, 10:14 AM   #16
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One thing to keep in mind when comparing coach prices is not just the initial upcharge to step to the next level, but the higher resale value later on. If you pay a $50K premium up front to upgrade to the next level you may get another $25K back when it's time to trade it in so the real net cost increase is only $25K.

Naturally, there are other factors as well. You still have to be able to afford the monthly payment so if that's a bit high for your budget then it's a moot point. Also, that increase in resale value will vary as to how long you keep the coach. If you trade in 2-3 years you'll see a nice increase but if you keep the coach for 10 years you won't see much difference.

That's just one of the many factors to consider when deciding which model to buy. But if you plan on trading every 3 years, and can afford the higher monthly payment, your true cost of ownership will only go up a portion of the initial cost. So you need to weigh that amount against how bad you really want what the next higher coach has to offer.

I get asked lots of questions whether the "X" model is worth the additional price over the "Y" model and that's always the hardest question to answer because everyone has different expectations, budgets, etc. The resale value is just one more factor to consider.
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:58 AM   #17
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Great point Cruzer and one that is often overlooked and left out of the discussion. Of course in my case, we are on our FIFTH LAST rv, you know, the one that would last us as long as we were able to travel LOL!!! Guess we still just like new toys! I promise, this is ABSOLUTELY our last one....... Stay tuned
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:29 PM   #18
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Great point Cruzer and one that is often overlooked and left out of the discussion. Of course in my case, we are on our FIFTH LAST rv, you know, the one that would last us as long as we were able to travel LOL!!! Guess we still just like new toys! I promise, this is ABSOLUTELY our last one....... Stay tuned

Aw, c'mon Gene. You know that there will be improvements on the '14 and '15 models. We're depending on you to keep the economy going strong!
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Old 12-21-2012, 04:19 PM   #19
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One thing to keep in mind when comparing coach prices is not just the initial upcharge to step to the next level, but the higher resale value later on. If you pay a $50K premium up front to upgrade to the next level you may get another $25K back when it's time to trade it in so the real net cost increase is only $25K.

Naturally, there are other factors as well. You still have to be able to afford the monthly payment so if that's a bit high for your budget then it's a moot point. Also, that increase in resale value will vary as to how long you keep the coach. If you trade in 2-3 years you'll see a nice increase but if you keep the coach for 10 years you won't see much difference.

That's just one of the many factors to consider when deciding which model to buy. But if you plan on trading every 3 years, and can afford the higher monthly payment, your true cost of ownership will only go up a portion of the initial cost. So you need to weigh that amount against how bad you really want what the next higher coach has to offer.

I get asked lots of questions whether the "X" model is worth the additional price over the "Y" model and that's always the hardest question to answer because everyone has different expectations, budgets, etc. The resale value is just one more factor to consider.
I think in any depreciating asset, the argument of better resale only holds true if it can be demonstrated that, for example, the Cornerstone doesn't depreciate as fast or holds its value more than the Anthem. So using the numbers from a previous post, if you could purchase an Anthem for $300K vs. a Cornerstone for $390K, and sell both 5 years later and both depreciated 50%, your Anthem would be worth $150K and the Cornerstone $195, you really wouldn't have gained any monetary value since they depreciated at the same rate. However, if the Cornerstone held its value and depreciated at a slower rate, then I believe your logic would hold true.

This is no different than purchasing a "Ford" vs. "Lexus". I believe in the NADA books, you could certainly have the analytical research to demonstrate that your Lexus would depreciate slower than the Ford, which is also demonstrating in the residual value after leasing. Maybe this can be done in the NADA for RVs as the Entegra product has more longevity in the market place.

Or, if you disagree, where am I going wrong on this? All comments welcome because the Cornerstone is a beauty, if I could ever justify it to my DW
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Old 12-21-2012, 05:56 PM   #20
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I think in any depreciating asset, the argument of better resale only holds true if it can be demonstrated that, for example, the Cornerstone doesn't depreciate as fast or holds its value more than the Anthem. So using the numbers from a previous post, if you could purchase an Anthem for $300K vs. a Cornerstone for $390K, and sell both 5 years later and both depreciated 50%, your Anthem would be worth $150K and the Cornerstone $195, you really wouldn't have gained any monetary value since they depreciated at the same rate. However, if the Cornerstone held its value and depreciated at a slower rate, then I believe your logic would hold true.

This is no different than purchasing a "Ford" vs. "Lexus". I believe in the NADA books, you could certainly have the analytical research to demonstrate that your Lexus would depreciate slower than the Ford, which is also demonstrating in the residual value after leasing. Maybe this can be done in the NADA for RVs as the Entegra product has more longevity in the market place.

Or, if you disagree, where am I going wrong on this? All comments welcome because the Cornerstone is a beauty, if I could ever justify it to my DW
If you consider most "options" on vehicles can add up to be costly...especially on these types of RV's. Then understand those same options depreciate to a value of zero soon after purchase (same goes for a car/truck). Then consider the dollars one would have to spend to get another RV to compare to the Entegra's "options" that are included in the price and one can quickly see how buying an Entegra will have a lower depreciation value (read percentage) than other manf. coaches that require you to spend significant dollars for options that are included in Entegra. When it comes time to trade, the Entegra will be worth more than a comparable coach.
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Old 12-21-2012, 06:45 PM   #21
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Guys I really appreciate this discussion, my wife it the true meaning of a bean counter and when it's time to make the decision between the two, many of the things mentioned will be a factor. While I'm doing my research she's definitely doing her's and I can see right now that it won't be an easy decision to make. I started my research earlier this year and I've seen at least two model years (2012-2013) available for the early in the Summer 2012 so I'm wondering will this continue to be the trend? By the time we are ready to make a purchase in 2014 the 2016s may already be available. I tell you, it's not easy waiting this long to make a purchase, but when dealing with a purchase that will cost between 300-400K I will take my time.

Keep the good advice and comments coming.

Tony
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:08 PM   #22
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Unfortunately, Entegras don't hold their value as well as many of their competitors. For example, if you would check Nada for the Anthem and the Allegro Bus, you will find that the Bus holds it's value better. I think it is because Entegras lack history. Hopefully as time goes on that will change.
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:12 PM   #23
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Tony, I do NOT think that will be the trend. Entegra has learned a LOT from customers and experience with suppliers and wanted to make a lot of running changes on things that they knew needed to be changed. Having said that, the Entegra Coach is now maturing and I really think that you will see a more normal model year change schedule, on the same not, you will not see many running changes as they have fixed most of the things that customers and experience have told them needed to be changed. I agree that the 44 DLQ needs to be fixed so that you can get into the bedroom without having to put a slide out(I know that they are studying this and expect a fix to happen). As their market matures you will see more and exciting new floor plans emerge, just do not wait too long before taking the plunge and miss out on all the fun you could be having in the mean time. LOL All just my opinion.
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:40 PM   #24
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If you consider most "options" on vehicles can add up to be costly...especially on these types of RV's. Then understand those same options depreciate to a value of zero soon after purchase (same goes for a car/truck). Then consider the dollars one would have to spend to get another RV to compare to the Entegra's "options" that are included in the price and one can quickly see how buying an Entegra will have a lower depreciation value (read percentage) than other manf. coaches that require you to spend significant dollars for options that are included in Entegra. When it comes time to trade, the Entegra will be worth more than a comparable coach.
Good point! But the math still holds true to any depreciating asset, if they depreciate at the same rate, the one you spent more money on actually will cost you more in the long run. I would still choose the Anthem over the Aspire because has "must haves" on my list. The Cornerstone only has "would be nice to have" and, so, right now it's not worth the extra $$$ it would cost up front and, the hit when I sell. However, considering that this depreciating asset is really a way of life/entertainment, I think how much it depreciates is of less importance to the actual vehicle you & the DW want to full-time in over a significant period in life.
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Old 12-21-2012, 10:10 PM   #25
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When I started researching last winter going from a gas to a DP, I had never heard of Entegra. I saw ad add from Adventure RV in Spartanburg, SC and thought it was something I should look into. I went to the Tiffin factory, the Newmar factory, and the Entegra factory. I bought the 2012 Aspire 42' DEQ from Adventure RV and love it. The factory tours made the difference. The people at the Entegra factory were and are the best by far.
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Old 12-21-2012, 10:20 PM   #26
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Unfortunately, Entegras don't hold their value as well as many of their competitors. For example, if you would check Nada for the Anthem and the Allegro Bus, you will find that the Bus holds it's value better. I think it is because Entegras lack history. Hopefully as time goes on that will change.
I would think as time goes forward that we will see this trend reverse. Keep in mind that on a Tiffin Bus many of the features that are considered options are standard on the Entegras. When a dealer determines trade value on a Bus, it doesn't matter to the dealer that you spent $20k on options. They likely will ignore that fact. This is my understanding.
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Old 12-21-2012, 10:23 PM   #27
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All have hit the mark on the why's...and yes, I'll probably want to upgrade to a 14 or 15 in a couple years, but you have to buy before you retire, unless you were able to bank a lot more as a military retiree than I was (one to many kids through law school)...so like Gene, i'm on both my first and most likely last. Probably wouldn't qualify another time around as a retiree (that I became last Friday).

And yes, the Cornerstone would have been a great choice, but just a step out of affordability for us. But no question in our minds, Entegras for the money in the price point was the selection for us...picking up a week from today
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:39 AM   #28
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Unfortunately, Entegras don't hold their value as well as many of their competitors. For example, if you would check Nada for the Anthem and the Allegro Bus, you will find that the Bus holds it's value better. I think it is because Entegras lack history. Hopefully as time goes on that will change.

You also have to take into account that if you buy a brand new Tiffin you do not get the upfront off list price like you get with Entegra. Dealers will not come off msrp nearly as much. So you are in for more money at the time of sale. For all of us that purchased we liked the $$$ we got off the list price. In fact i would venture to say that was the driving reason for the purchase. Then when you compare the Purchase price to other products out there you realize you got the best bang for the buck. Entegra is a great coach.

I think that is a big factor when it comes to resale. Right now if you look at the forum i would venture to say the vast majority of owners purchased off the big three. Mhsrv, Rvone, Lazydays. We all know the pricing and when you are ready to buy and you have the cash they compete against one another for the market share, resulting in even lower pricing. I don't know how the other dealers compete if they have product because we know they don't have volume.

Summay, if you are getting 35% or better off msrp on a new one, and you go to resell it especially on a trade don't expect a 25% hit on depreciation. It is all a function of what you can buy a new one for. My opinion, that is the single biggest factor to future value. We all suspect Entegra will have to increase price if nothing else just to cover the cost of living, and their quality is high, once demand for used ones increase pricing will remain high as well. There are very few used Entegras on the market.
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