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Old 06-06-2013, 07:36 AM   #1
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Engine Brake

There's an interesting discussion over on another major forum and I thought it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on the subject.

Do you run with your engine brake on all the time or only when you need it? If you don't leave it on all the time, why not?

I run with it always on low as you never know when you might need it. Kinda hard in a quick stop to reach down, fumble for the switch, and then find it but after you already smacked the idiot in front of you who slowed down suddenly.

I drive a lot with the cruise control on and if the cruise coasts the coach, the EB does not come on. If going down a hill on cruise and the coach accelerates to approximately 5 mph over the set speed, the EB comes on to help control the speed. That I like!
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Old 06-06-2013, 08:20 AM   #2
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Tom,

With emphasis, the Spartan folks at the course said, "...use your brakes and don't be afraid to use them hard..." occasionally at 35 to 50 mph, where we'd normally have let the jake brake slow us down.

Reason, the brake shoes need to get hot and burn off the "resin" that rises to the surface and cause brake life to be significantly reduced.

That said, there recommendation was to turn the jakes off in flat or rolling countryside, and turn them on in mountainous areas. I'm sure some will disagree with this perspective, and it is counter to what many of us were told during our deliveries, but this is coming from people who have been building these things and driving them for 35-40 years.

They indicated that use of jakes on trucks is different. They are putting 100-300K miles on a year and using their brakes in all kinds of conditions. Thus they have brake jobs much more often than we will if we just use the brakes properly. Spartan says using this approach...should need a brake job for 300K miles...got my attention
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:17 AM   #3
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Tom,

With emphasis, the Spartan folks at the course said, "...use your brakes and don't be afraid to use them hard..." occasionally at 35 to 50 mph, where we'd normally have let the jake brake slow us down.

Reason, the brake shoes need to get hot and burn off the "resin" that rises to the surface and cause brake life to be significantly reduced.

That said, there recommendation was to turn the jakes off in flat or rolling countryside, and turn them on in mountainous areas. I'm sure some will disagree with this perspective, and it is counter to what many of us were told during our deliveries, but this is coming from people who have been building these things and driving them for 35-40 years.

They indicated that use of jakes on trucks is different. They are putting 100-300K miles on a year and using their brakes in all kinds of conditions. Thus they have brake jobs much more often than we will if we just use the brakes properly. Spartan says using this approach...should need a brake job for 300K miles...got my attention
Dave, I understand that is what they say and I've been aware of that issue for many years in driving my coaches. It is for that exact reason that I don't rely on the EB to slow me down at stops and when exiting the freeway. I use the brakes as if the EB doesn't exist.

My practice of leaving the EB on all the time is primarily for safety reasons, as I know my coach will stop faster with it on than it will with it off. I would hate for a situation to arise where there is an accident right in front of me, I hit the brakes, can't stop and rear end the car in front of me and you can imagine what kind of damage that would do. Imagine the same scenario but I have my EB engaged. Granted there is no guarantee that I will be able to stop in time, this time either but I definitely will have a better chance cause the EB is helping.

If I had the EB off, am I going to sit there afterwards looking at all the damage caused to my front end and then at the family car I demolished in front of me and wonder could I have stopped in time if the EB had been on? Then think, Oh Well, it doesn't really matter cause I did what Spartan told me so I could get a few more miles out of my brakes.

JMHO, but safety first and if it means I have to replace brakes more often so be it. Besides, I'll trade this coach way before it gets 300K miles anyway.
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:22 AM   #4
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I don't have a Jake, but have an exhaust brake. I turn mine off except when I'm traveling in the mountains or traffic. Unless I'm running on cruise, it's irritating for it to kick on everytime I lift my foot from the go pedal or tap the brake.
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:27 AM   #5
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Tom, I agree with you...something had to get me in the habit of using the brakes as I was using the engine brakes too much. Now that I'm there with another 1500 miles under the belt, I'll likely revert from a safety perspective.

I also didn't like it applying itself on downhills in the mountains when I didn't want it (long and straight facing a long uphill at about 5 mph above the cruise setting), also engaging the brake on the toad.
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:31 AM   #6
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I come from old school as well. My employer always had the jake removed before taking possession because they did not want the drivers to use them. The reason was they owned something like 15,000 vehicles and having a Jake that may need repair even one time in 15,000 would save them many bucks + the additional cost of buying in the first place. Much of the time the vehicles were on flat ground and the need for Jakes were minimized. With that in mind, my thoughts were simply if they analized it as unneeded why should I argue their point. Truth is, most of the time I am on flat ground as well. Yes I have a Jake, I tend to not have it on unless I am in steep terrain. My tendency is to use the gears and not follow close because it requires me to be on the brakes.
I also noticed that when I do run the Jake the Jake causes the brake lights to come on. On both the MH and the Toad.
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:32 AM   #7
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Tom, I agree with you...something had to get me in the habit of using the brakes as I was using the engine brakes too much. Now that I'm there with another 1500 miles under the belt, I'll likely revert from a safety perspective.

I also didn't like it applying itself on downhills in the mountains when I didn't want it (long and straight facing a long uphill at about 5 mph above the cruise setting), also engaging the brake on the toad.
I don't believe with my SMI Air Force One supplemental brake system that my toad brakes come on when I use the EB.

Additionally, I believe there is a setting to the Cummins ECM that can be made so that the EB/Jake brake only engages when you touch the brake pedal. My service center is checking into this as we speak. With this change you can truly coast without having to feather the throttle. Will let you know what I find out. This setting doesn't effect normal cruise control operation.
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:37 AM   #8
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....I also noticed that when I do run the Jake the Jake causes the brake lights to come on. On both the MH and the Toad.
I suppose that could be a good thing as it alerts traffic behind you that you are slowing down.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:10 AM   #9
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...I also noticed that when I do run the Jake the Jake causes the brake lights to come on. On both the MH and the Toad.
That is something that can be programmed to do the opposite in the ECM. I've seen interesting discussions on likes and dislikes of that feature.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:25 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSL417 View Post
Tom, I agree with you...something had to get me in the habit of using the brakes as I was using the engine brakes too much. Now that I'm there with another 1500 miles under the belt, I'll likely revert from a safety perspective.

I also didn't like it applying itself on downhills in the mountains when I didn't want it (long and straight facing a long uphill at about 5 mph above the cruise setting), also engaging the brake on the toad.
IMHO...if you stand on the service brakes in a panic/hi demand stop, the EB will NOT help you. Think of it. With brakes applied to the point of locking up, the ABS will kick in and the EB will not really provide any additional braking. In such a case, even if it could "help", why would you want your wheels to lock up anyway? Again...IMHO...the sole purpose of EBs is to avoid excessive use of service brakes in hilly terrain.

The programing of the ECM to turn on the brake lights when the EB is activate only affects the lights and not the AFO at all. The programing is set so that if you have the EB on and not using any throttle that the brake lights come on. Any throttle added turns off the brake lights. AFO is still totally controlled by your application of the service brake.

I'm not aware of an ECM setting that only activates the EB when the service brakes are used but I look forward to tnrzryd's research on that. Even if so, that would seem pretty...wrong. Why would anyone want to have the EB activated only if the service brake was used? That would defeat the whole concept of using EBs on steep down hills to avoid use of service brakes.
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Old 06-06-2013, 12:30 PM   #11
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Cummins can change the ECM so that the EB stays off when you take your foot off the accelerator so you can truly coast. To engage the EB, a simple tap and release of brake pedal engages the EB. To disengage it, apply power. Not everyone will want this done but some will.
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Old 06-06-2013, 12:48 PM   #12
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Cummins can change the ECM so that the EB stays off when you take your foot off the accelerator so you can truly coast. To engage the EB, a simple tap and release of brake pedal engages the EB. To disengage it, apply power. Not everyone will want this done but some will.
OH...that released an engram or 2 out of my brain. LOL I now remember reading the option to tap and set the EB.

On your first sentence about the ECM, I'm thinking that might refer to the brake lights not being activated while having the EB activated with no throttle? That makes sense to me. Not sure why one would want the ECM to always turn the EB off when there is no throttle.
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:32 PM   #13
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There's an interesting discussion over on another major forum and I thought it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on the subject.

Do you run with your engine brake on all the time or only when you need it? If you don't leave it on all the time, why not?

I run with it always on low as you never know when you might need it. Kinda hard in a quick stop to reach down, fumble for the switch, and then find it but after you already smacked the idiot in front of you who slowed down suddenly.

I drive a lot with the cruise control on and if the cruise coasts the coach, the EB does not come on. If going down a hill on cruise and the coach accelerates to approximately 5 mph over the set speed, the EB comes on to help control the speed. That I like!
Are we supposed to be programmed to have the EB come on with cruise control to slow down on hills? Mine does not do that.
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Old 06-06-2013, 04:03 PM   #14
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Are we supposed to be programmed to have the EB come on with cruise control to slow down on hills? Mine does not do that.
Corey, it should. The trigger is somewhere between 5 and 10 mph. Test it out but don't let it get going too fast on ya.
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