Induction cook top

[MoHoGo]

Gary, which cooktop do you have now? NIRVC changed our Furrion out, but still no love. I call Furrion tech support and "surprise surprise" they were shockl2ed and had never heard of the issue :-(.

Matt, I believe L1 & L2 are present at the breaker panel and I also believe the circuit for the current Induction cooktop is a dedicated one so if a person was so inclined they could installed another breaker and run another 115 leg on the neutral. For me, that presents another whole set of problems (cure might be worse than the disease).

I believe Mark Q responded to one of my previous posts on the cooktop issue with a suggestion for 220V cooktops, but I can not find it this morning. Coming from the Tiffin world I am sure he is more versed in the availability of 220 for the cooktops.

[Gary.Jones]

Matt and Jim:

Your understanding of how it would be done is fundamentally the same as mine. I don't think that it is a major engineering problem at all..... but I also know that my $80 Duxtop either bought at Sams or on Amazon, beats the crap out of my current True Induction unit. If an $80 stand along unit can heat appropriately, there is no reason that a $400 unit cannot do the same and that is all on a single 120 VAC, 15 amp circuit. I think that a lot of people have trouble getting used to the concept that you have can all 1800 watts on one burner, but essentially no more than 900 watts on each of the burners if you have them both running at half power and have to share the current from the one line. That is another issue that I never raised earlier. Our unit has never been able to do 9 on one unit and 1 on the other, or 8 on one burner and 2 on the other.... when 2 burners are used, we can't get a total of more than around 17 units across the two heating elements although the manual says we should essentially be able to always get 10 total units across the two burners.

(Jim.... my manufacturer is: True Induction and my coach was one of the earliest 15s that had the 2016 change to an induction cooktop incorporated in the rig.)

I am convinced that my unit has been defective since we bought the coach in 2015. My wife has moaned and complained about it since we bought the coach, but she cooks on natural gas in our kitchen at home (and it is a commercial Viking unit), and I assumed that she wasn't adjusting to the induction..... but it wasn't until I bought the cheapo stand-alone unit for comparison that I realized that it was not induction, or my better half that was the problem..... it was the unit in the coach. I assume at this point that there would be a chorus of complaints about the OEM installed units on iRV2 if it was a fundamental problem with the TrueInduction, but many owners seem fine with their unit once they get used to it, so my assumption, until proven otherwise, is that I got a "turkey" from the factory and it just took me a long time to understand it.

I've apologized to my wife for doubting her as long as I did.

And Jim.... get reporting it to the factory pronto and get it on the books. They will swap units with you and I believe will stay at it until you get one that works. Get it in the computer. My sense is that the 2 year warranty thing is now a bigger deal than it used to be and once your clock ticks past 2 years exactly, the factory gets all sort of generally uncooperative even if it was a previously unrecognized problem. :-(


Gary

[Selah]

My 2014 Phaeton came equipped with a 240v induction cook top so it should not be a major protect to add 240 to an Entegra or Newmar. I have since changed the OEM cooktop for a Wolf. There is no doubt that when we go back to a S&B it will have a Wolf induction.
We carry a portable 110v unit to the occasional times when we only have 30amp.
Boondocking is no problem as we use the grill extensively for evenomg meals. Since you typically need to run the genny in the mornings to recharge, that's when you make your coffee and breakfast. Even using the grill a lot you still need to run the genny again at night to maintain the batteries.
The pluses for having a 240v cooktop out weighs the minuses.

[brobox]

Originally Posted by krivanj

Our friends have a 220v Wolf induction in a 2015 Allegro bus. Being all electric is not all fun; they have to run the generator a lot if they only have 30A service.
We travel with them a lot and it seems their generator is always running.

Just sayin'

That could be the very reason Entegra stayed with a 110v Induction cook top. Running 220V on 30 amp would be impossible. I just installed a new Induction cook top in the S&B where the salesman told me that most of the Inductions required a 50 amp breaker, which I had. In a MH that's all the incoming power.

[Selah]

Originally Posted by brobox

That could be the very reason Entegra stayed with a 110v Induction cook top. Running 220V on 30 amp would be impossible. I just installed a new Induction cook top in the S&B where the salesman told me that most of the Inductions required a 50 amp breaker, which I had. In a MH that's all the incoming power.

A 220v induction cook top does not use all 50 amps. That would be a 11,000 watt burner. You could melt iron with that.
On a 50 hookup we can run both burners, the microwave and A/C while watching TV. It's just not a big deal.

[brobox]

Originally Posted by Selah

A 220v induction cook top does not use all 50 amps. That would be a 11,000 watt burner. You could melt iron with that.
On a 50 hookup we can run both burners, the microwave and A/C while watching TV. It's just not a big deal.

I am sure it's a code requirement. I was surprised the salesman made such a big deal out of it
Just passed along what I was told while making a 220v Induction purchase. In addition RVs only have 2 burners instead of 4.

[Cruzer]

Originally Posted by Selah

A 220v induction cook top does not use all 50 amps. That would be a 11,000 watt burner. You could melt iron with that.
On a 50 hookup we can run both burners, the microwave and A/C while watching TV. It's just not a big deal.

Technically, that's 12,000 watts so you could really melt some iron.

There is no such thing as a "110" or "220" power supply. They are 120 or 240 volts. However, it's common for most people to refer to it as 110 or 220. The reason for that is most of the appliances are labeled that way on their amperage/voltage labels. They are labeled that way because the manufacturers know that they won't always see the full voltage due to long extension cords, poor wiring, etc. So they design them to not fail at the lower voltages, which is a good thing. But when calculating wattage always use the 120 or 240 volt values.

Just a bit of interesting trivia today that really doesn't matter.

[DeWat]

Originally Posted by Cruzer

Technically, that's 12,000 watts so you could really melt some iron.

...

Just a bit of interesting trivia today that really doesn't matter.

Might be "trivia", but as usual, the good to know information that you have anyways provided.

[Cruzer]

There are reasons to have a 120 volt cooktop and there are reasons to have a 240 volt cooktop. It all depends on how your camping style fits your cooking style.

An Entegra coach will have 240 volts available. Before all the other brand owners jump in here saying that this isn't true I will add that some other brands with 50 amp service will have 240 volts available but not all. Any 50 amp shore power service will have 240 VAC across L1 and L2. This runs through the transfer switch and into the main breaker panel. This is called a split-phase system. Connecting either L1 or L2 to neutral will give you 120 VAC, which is how all of your breakers are wired. When you run your generator the transfer switch kicks over and you have this same split phase system.

For other brands - it depends. The Onan 10KW and 12.5 KW generators are true 1800 RPM split phase (120/240) generators. If you have one of those you will have 240 volts available when running the generator. However, the Onan 7.5KW and 8 KW generators are inverter based and do not produce 240 volts. They are considered in-phase so L1 to L2 will have zero voltage but both will have 120 when measured to neutral.

A 30 amp shore power feed is only one single 120 VAC pole so obviously you will not have 240 volts available on a 30 amp feed.

If you have a 10KW or better generator you can run it when on 30 amp shore power to power a 240 volt cooktop. If your generator is smaller then you cannot cook unless plugged into 50 amp. Not an issue for Entegra owners but may be for some others.

As to installing a 240 volt cooktop in an Entegra - it can be done and I will be doing it. We rarely have a 30 amp service and when we do it would be no problem to fire up the generator for that period of time, given the places we generally stay at. The benefits of having the 240 volt cooktop outweigh the drawbacks, at least in our particular case. Leann spends a lot of time in the galley. That's her passion and she's very good at it. Plus I like to eat so I'm all for putting in whatever it takes.

We don't have an induction cooktop and don't want one. Instead we have a Kenyon electric glass top cooktop. It's nice but it is a 120 volt cooktop so you can't run both burners full bore and it doesn't control low heat as well as it could. We've added a Wolf 120 volt countertop oven, which is an amazing appliance. Wolf may be more expensive but it is worth it. so the next plan is to replace the 120 volt Kenyon cooktop with a 240 volt Wolf electric cooktop. Reviews on this cooktop place it very high. Now all I have to do is find a way to get 240 volts to it.

I called Wolf and found out that this cooktop used 3 wires. It is straight 240 volts across two poles plus a ground wire. There is no fourth neutral wire because there is nothing that needs 120 volts split phase isn't necessary. This makes it easy because I can use the existing wiring. All I have to do is tape the white wire formerly used as the neutral with red tape on both ends of the wire. Then I have to disconnect in the main breaker panel and reconnect so that the black wire is on the L1 phase and the red wire is on the L2 phase. This is not a problem in the main panel, where both L1 and L2 are present however you cannot connect a 240 volt appliance to the Magnum inverters and split that so no inverter usage is possible but with the draw of that cooktop you wouldn't want that anyway.

That's the simple way to connect a 240 volt cooktop. If your cooktop required a 4 wire split phase system you could still do it but it would require fishing a 4-wire Romex from the panel to the cooktop. You could do it with a sub-panel as well but there is no room to put another sub-panel in the area where the two existing Entegra panels are.

[BFlinn181]

Originally Posted by Cruzer

...For other brands - it depends. The Onan 10KW and 12.5 KW generators are true 1800 RPM split phase (120/240) generators. If you have one of those you will have 240 volts available when running the generator. However, the Onan 7.5KW and 8 KW generators are inverter based and do not produce 240 volts. They are considered in-phase so L1 to L2 will have zero voltage but both will have 120 when measured to neutral...

Agree with your previous post about 110-220v not being the U.S. voltage standard.

About generators being inverter based, only creating two in-phase legs of power, wouldn't that mean that both hot legs, at full load, would be 'returning' 100 amps on the neutral wire?? Is the neutral wire twice as big as the 50 amp hot legs, or are two neutrals wired, one for each hot lead?

I always assumed that the 3 equal sized conductors in an RV 50 amp system was because the two legs were 180º out of phase, so the neutral would never 'see' more than 50 amps, even if both hot legs were at full load.

[Mr_D]

Originally Posted by MoHoGo

You might want to do some due diligence before changing over to an induction cooktop. We have the Furrion Induction in our Anthem and we are very unhappy with the performance. Actually had the cooktop replaced with no difference in performance. Before everyone jumps on the "you have to have the right cookware" bandwagon we have tried several leading makers of Induction Cookware.

The problem we are experiencing is that only the center 4 inches or so of the pan really heats. Here is a pic of one of four pans we have tried.

Attachment 163819

We are now considering changing over to the Electric Cooktop that Newmar uses (Kenynon ?). We may also look at the Induction Cooktop being used in the Newmar as well to see if it performs any better. As a temporary solution we purchased a flat plate called a diffuser and while inconvenient that is helping even out the heat.

The cooktop Entegra and Newmar uses are not expensive. Entegra would be the last place I'd purchase one from as their part prices are high.

I put a TrueInduction 120 V unit in my Country Coach, but have never tried it. Now you've got me curious enough to go try it. Would hate to be out and want to actually cook a dinner rather than microwave something and find it won't do the job! I've got the Magma nesting cookware which isn't cheap so I hope it works OK.

I bought a cheap single hob unit and pan from Wal*Mart to try induction out, it worked so well in the stick house that I converted the MH to the True Induction unit. I have gas in the stick house and the cheap induction unit was much faster and better controlled.

I do have 240 volts available as the dryer is a 240 volt unit and my generator is a 12.5 Onan. Just didn't want to limit myself to only being able to use the cooktop when on 50 amp hookup or have to run the gen since most parks I've been in don't allow it.

[Cruzer]

Originally Posted by BFlinn181

Agree with your previous post about 110-220v not being the U.S. voltage standard.

About generators being inverter based, only creating two in-phase legs of power, wouldn't that mean that both hot legs, at full load, would be 'returning' 100 amps on the neutral wire?? Is the neutral wire twice as big as the 50 amp hot legs, or are two neutrals wired, one for each hot lead?

I always assumed that the 3 equal sized conductors in an RV 50 amp system was because the two legs were 180º out of phase, so the neutral would never 'see' more than 50 amps, even if both hot legs were at full load.

Your last paragraph is correct. But the second paragraph about 100 amps on the neutral is "sort of" correct. The reason it isn't an issue is because this only occurs when both L1 and L2 are in-phase and that only happens if a smaller generator set (8KW or less) is being used or you are on a 30 amp shore power. An 8KW generator will only produce 66.67 amps at the most and chances are that each pole is breakered at 30 amps so 60 is the maximum you'll ever see. The #6 neutral wire will handle that.

Now, if you actually had a 12.5 KW generator that was in-phase you could indeed see 100 amps on the neutral. But seeing as how they are all split-phase that won't ever happen.

[Matt D]

So Mark, how is the Allegro Bus sourcing power for the cooktop?

In other words, is there a 30A cooktop breaker on L1 & L2?

Thanks,

-Matt

[Cruzer]

Originally Posted by Matt D

So Mark, how is the Allegro Bus sourcing power for the cooktop?

In other words, is there a 30A cooktop breaker on L1 & L2?

Thanks,

-Matt

It's been a while since I looked into the latest breaker panel on an Allegro Bus. I assume that they are using a two pole full frame breaker, such as a Q220 or Q230, in the main breaker panel. Our '07 Bus actually came with a two pole breaker for a stackable clothes dryer. The very first 2007 Busses used a 240 volt dryer until they figured out that the non-tag coaches, which had a 7.5 KW generator. couldn't run it unless on 50 amp shore power. After a few months they switched over to a 120 volt dryer. We had the Splendide combo so it didn't affect us but that big breaker was still in the box. There's really no other way to do unless they spread it apart and use two single pole breakers on opposing phases.