National Indoor RV

[rcrevolution]

Originally Posted by GeezerViz

Service is a problem industry wide, based on what I read here and on other forums. Plus the fact that my coach has been in the shop (not NIRVC) for 4 weeks and still isn't fixed.

I wouldn't buy new unless (1) I could go to the factory for warranty work or (2) the manufacturer agreed in writing to send me the parts so I could do the work. Working on these things is not rocket science, yet these dealers can't seem to find anyone qualified to be anywhere near the tools.

[wkenhall]

We had very positive results on a 2012 Tiffin Bus bought from Angie. I traded a 1996 Bay that I knew was headed to the auction. I got a fair price; not what I hoped but very fair

[ChuckGirard]

Was in Atlanta at NIRVC, for one month storage and had a list of issues to fix. We had cameras running (for security) caugh lots of sloppy behavior and some homies coming in to our coach to show boat to their friends and “play” with fridge, cabinets etc. Not impressed and there service said they fixed things but didn’t.

I agree the issue is industry wide, NIRVC is no exception...

[JMD VENTURES]

Purchased our Cornerstone from Angie/NIRVC almost two years ago and have nothing but got to say about this group. Granted the motor home industry is light years behind the car industry, they still do as good of a job as possible all things considered.

[DSL417]

Low ball trade number from them, combined with a fairly nice discount from MSRP. That said, Brett specifically told me..."If the trade is over five years old we wholesale it out. And we are not interested in single bath units [as resales], as we don't believe that is where the market is. We wholesale those out as well."

Their number to me was $30k below wholesale for a two year old, single bath Cornerstone, pricing against a 2017 Cornerstone. The discount to MSRP would have brought that number back to about $10k below wholesale. At the same time, their business model and customer service for those that buy from them seems impeccable. My one time using their service resulted in good quality Aquahot service, and a botched window replacement (warrantee). So, for me, a mixed opinion. JMHO

[LWBAZ]

Regarding trade-in numbers, perhaps an example will be useful.

Let’s say I have a 2010 40-QXP Tiffin Allegro Bus (which I did) and let’s say I’m shopping for a new motorhome (which I was), and I’m considering trading in the Allegro Bus (I wasn’t, but for this example we’ll pretend I was). And let’s say I’ve narrowed the list of candidate manufacturers for the new motorhome to Entegra, Newmar and Tiffin (which I had).

The current NADA numbers are down a bit from six months or so ago when I actually did this, but let’s use today’s NADA numbers for a 2010 40-QXP Tiffin Allegro Bus, which are:

Low Retail = $128,000

Average Retail = $154,200

As most of you probably know, Low Retail is what a dealer will typically ask for a unit in not-so-great condition, while Average Retail is what a dealer will typically ask for a unit in good to excellent condition. Neither of those numbers represents wholesale value, and NADA doesn’t publish wholesale values on their public web site. If you want those numbers you have to pay a subscription fee, but the generally accepted conventional wisdom is that wholesale value is something like 10% to 15% percent below Low Retail. In the example above, 10% below Low Retail is $115,200 and 15% below Low Retail is $108,800. Also worth mentioning is that the wholesale market is volatile, so the real numbers can be significantly different.

In my experience doing private-party sales of several of our own motorhomes and assisting a number of others with similar sales of their coaches, private-party sales of motorhomes in good to excellent condition usually go down somewhere around the mid-point between Low Retail and Average Retail. In the example above, that mid-point is $141,100. (When we did the private-party sale of our Allegro Bus back in September 2017, the midpoint number was about $147,000 and we completed a private-party sale at $146,000.)

All of the numbers quoted above are base numbers; i.e., they do not include anything for options and upgrades. Dealers rarely if ever increase a trade-in number for options and upgrades, and private-party buyers are rarely if ever willing to pay much if anything more for them. What options and upgrades do provide is improved “marketability,” meaning that a coach with more options and upgrades will be more desirable than one with fewer options and upgrades, and hence easier to sell.

So let’s say I can’t decide between a new Entegra, a new Newmar, or a new Tiffin, but I’ve decided my preferred dealership for an Entegra or Newmar purchase is NIRVC while my preferred dealership for a Tiffin purchase is Davis Motorhome Mart in Memphis (which happens to be the dealership from which we purchased our 2010 Allegro Bus back in late 2009).

So I call (or better yet stop by) both dealerships to get a trade-in quote on the 2010 Allegro Bus. Based on what I explained in a previous post on this thread, NIRVC doesn’t really want a 2010 Allegro Bus for resale so if they take it in trade they’re going to wholesale it off rather than put it on their lot. And since they don’t know exactly what they’ll get for it on the wholesale market, they’re probably going to be very cautious when quoting me a number. Let’s figure Low Retail minus 20% which is $102,400.

Davis Motorhome Mart will probably be more interested in reselling a well-maintained 2010 Allegro Bus with lots of options and upgrades. Why? Well, for one they’re located pretty much in the heart of Tiffin country. Tiffin is headquartered in Red Bay, Alabama, about 140 miles from Davis in Memphis. Tiffin motorhomes are very popular in that part of the country, Davis Motorhome Mart is in a major metro area, and they sell a lot of Tiffin motorhomes.

So let’s say they’re not only willing to take my 2010 Allegro Bus in trade, but are confident of being able to resell it quickly at a tidy profit. As such, they might be willing to offer me something close to Low Retail for it. Low Retail is $128,000, so let’s say they offer me $125,000. As noted above, Average Retail is $154,200. Let’s be conservative and assume they feel they can get $150,000 for the coach and can do so without undue delay. That’s a cool $25,000 over what they gave me for it in this example, and they probably wouldn’t have to put forth a whole lot of effort to achieve that.

The point is that there is a big difference between these two scenarios. In the first example, I’m going to get a little over $100,000 for the Allegro Bus. In the second scenario, I’m going to get over $20,000 more than that. For the exact same coach.

Should I be insulted by the lower offer? Well, I could be but not so much if I understand what’s actually going on; i.e. that one of the two dealerships (Davis in this example) wants my trade-in for resale, while the other dealership (NIRVC in this example) does not. That doesn’t make either of them disreputable; it’s just different business practices, driven in part by different local markets. To be more specific with regard to NIRVC, I suspect owners wanting to trade in a two, three or four year old Entegra or Newmar are going to be a lot happier with their NIRVC trade-in offer than someone wanting to trade-in an older motorhome with a different brand name.

As events and our decision process unfolded, we decided to buy an Entegra and decided we wanted to do business with NIRVC. At that point I knew a trade-in of the Allegro Bus would make little or no sense, so we pursued and completed a private-party sale instead. Should we happen to decide to buy a new 2020, 2021 or 2022 Entegra or Newmar down the road, trading in our current 2018 Entegra to NIRVC might well be an attractive option.

One final point about trade-ins. If you have a coach in great shape, go out of your way to let your candidate dealership(s) see it in person. Nearly all dealerships will provide trade-in quotes over the phone or via e-mail, but think about what they have to do in those situations. Virtually every owner they interface with is going to say his or her coach is in great shape. In reality, relatively few of them truly are. So if I’m the dealer and I’m quoting a trade-in number sight-unseen, it’s not hard to guess which way I’m going to lean. If I can see the coach and confirm it really is in exceptional condition, I’ll be more likely to come in a little higher, especially if I’m going to keep it for resale.

Just my two cents on all of the above, though most of it is based on real experiences rather than theory. I don't mean to imply that every number cited above is 100% accurate, but I believe all of them are close enough to make the points regarding why trade-in offers can and do vary rather significantly.

Differing opinions welcome.

[50sbuckeye]

Many dealers will up your trade value to make you feel good while also taking less off the MSRP of the unit. The real number is what you pay in trade difference. My current 16 Cornerstone came from NIRV, and they have been nothing short of fabulous to deal with. Brett Davis is the most honest person in the business I know. The service in Atlanta is second to none from my experience.........

[Ann n Gene]

I have owned RVs since 1974, a lot of RVs in that time from a lot of dealers. I bought my Cornerstone from NIRVC a little over two and a half years ago and get my service done there. I have had service at all three locations and it had all been outstanding, by far the best I have ever had in all that 44 years of ownership. If I ever buy another one it will be from NIRVC and Brett Davis and nowhere else. Enough said and all JMHO.

[lowejug]

Originally Posted by LWBAZ

Regarding trade-in numbers, perhaps an example will be useful.

Let’s say I have a 2010 40-QXP Tiffin Allegro Bus (which I did) and let’s say I’m shopping for a new motorhome (which I was), and I’m considering trading in the Allegro Bus (I wasn’t, but for this example we’ll pretend I was). And let’s say I’ve narrowed the list of candidate manufacturers for the new motorhome to Entegra, Newmar and Tiffin (which I had).

The current NADA numbers are down a bit from six months or so ago when I actually did this, but let’s use today’s NADA numbers for a 2010 40-QXP Tiffin Allegro Bus, which are:

Low Retail = $128,000

Average Retail = $154,200

As most of you probably know, Low Retail is what a dealer will typically ask for a unit in not-so-great condition, while Average Retail is what a dealer will typically ask for a unit in good to excellent condition. Neither of those numbers represents wholesale value, and NADA doesn’t publish wholesale values on their public web site. If you want those numbers you have to pay a subscription fee, but the generally accepted conventional wisdom is that wholesale value is something like 10% to 15% percent below Low Retail. In the example above, 10% below Low Retail is $115,200 and 15% below Low Retail is $108,800. Also worth mentioning is that the wholesale market is volatile, so the real numbers can be significantly different.

In my experience doing private-party sales of several of our own motorhomes and assisting a number of others with similar sales of their coaches, private-party sales of motorhomes in good to excellent condition usually go down somewhere around the mid-point between Low Retail and Average Retail. In the example above, that mid-point is $141,100. (When we did the private-party sale of our Allegro Bus back in September 2017, the midpoint number was about $147,000 and we completed a private-party sale at $146,000.)

All of the numbers quoted above are base numbers; i.e., they do not include anything for options and upgrades. Dealers rarely if ever increase a trade-in number for options and upgrades, and private-party buyers are rarely if ever willing to pay much if anything more for them. What options and upgrades do provide is improved “marketability,” meaning that a coach with more options and upgrades will be more desirable than one with fewer options and upgrades, and hence easier to sell.

So let’s say I can’t decide between a new Entegra, a new Newmar, or a new Tiffin, but I’ve decided my preferred dealership for an Entegra or Newmar purchase is NIRVC while my preferred dealership for a Tiffin purchase is Davis Motorhome Mart in Memphis (which happens to be the dealership from which we purchased our 2010 Allegro Bus back in late 2009).

So I call (or better yet stop by) both dealerships to get a trade-in quote on the 2010 Allegro Bus. Based on what I explained in a previous post on this thread, NIRVC doesn’t really want a 2010 Allegro Bus for resale so if they take it in trade they’re going to wholesale it off rather than put it on their lot. And since they don’t know exactly what they’ll get for it on the wholesale market, they’re probably going to be very cautious when quoting me a number. Let’s figure Low Retail minus 20% which is $102,400.

Davis Motorhome Mart will probably be more interested in reselling a well-maintained 2010 Allegro Bus with lots of options and upgrades. Why? Well, for one they’re located pretty much in the heart of Tiffin country. Tiffin is headquartered in Red Bay, Alabama, about 140 miles from Davis in Memphis. Tiffin motorhomes are very popular in that part of the country, Davis Motorhome Mart is in a major metro area, and they sell a lot of Tiffin motorhomes.

So let’s say they’re not only willing to take my 2010 Allegro Bus in trade, but are confident of being able to resell it quickly at a tidy profit. As such, they might be willing to offer me something close to Low Retail for it. Low Retail is $128,000, so let’s say they offer me $125,000. As noted above, Average Retail is $154,200. Let’s be conservative and assume they feel they can get $150,000 for the coach and can do so without undue delay. That’s a cool $25,000 over what they gave me for it in this example, and they probably wouldn’t have to put forth a whole lot of effort to achieve that.

The point is that there is a big difference between these two scenarios. In the first example, I’m going to get a little over $100,000 for the Allegro Bus. In the second scenario, I’m going to get over $20,000 more than that. For the exact same coach.

Should I be insulted by the lower offer? Well, I could be but not so much if I understand what’s actually going on; i.e. that one of the two dealerships (Davis in this example) wants my trade-in for resale, while the other dealership (NIRVC in this example) does not. That doesn’t make either of them disreputable; it’s just different business practices, driven in part by different local markets. To be more specific with regard to NIRVC, I suspect owners wanting to trade in a two, three or four year old Entegra or Newmar are going to be a lot happier with their NIRVC trade-in offer than someone wanting to trade-in an older motorhome with a different brand name.

As events and our decision process unfolded, we decided to buy an Entegra and decided we wanted to do business with NIRVC. At that point I knew a trade-in of the Allegro Bus would make little or no sense, so we pursued and completed a private-party sale instead. Should we happen to decide to buy a new 2020, 2021 or 2022 Entegra or Newmar down the road, trading in our current 2018 Entegra to NIRVC might well be an attractive option.

One final point about trade-ins. If you have a coach in great shape, go out of your way to let your candidate dealership(s) see it in person. Nearly all dealerships will provide trade-in quotes over the phone or via e-mail, but think about what they have to do in those situations. Virtually every owner they interface with is going to say his or her coach is in great shape. In reality, relatively few of them truly are. So if I’m the dealer and I’m quoting a trade-in number sight-unseen, it’s not hard to guess which way I’m going to lean. If I can see the coach and confirm it really is in exceptional condition, I’ll be more likely to come in a little higher, especially if I’m going to keep it for resale.

Just my two cents on all of the above, though most of it is based on real experiences rather than theory. I don't mean to imply that every number cited above is 100% accurate, but I believe all of them are close enough to make the points regarding why trade-in offers can and do vary rather significantly.

Differing opinions welcome.

there is no way the consumer is ever going to come out anywhere close to a positive financial number trading in a motorhome to any dealer.. plain and simple..
these dealers get away with it because to many owners with deep pockets own these things and a lot of them take the big losses and move on because they don't want the "hassle" of selling it .. the dealers know this and now this is standard practice in the motorhome industry ... I personally think its greed... they want to
make a 100 grand on every single sale... 50 grand on your trade and the same on what there selling... we all do what we do and make money in our professions
and motorhome dealers are entitled to make money selling motorhomes but come on.. and we the consumers unfortunately keep allowing this ... jmo..

[brobox]

I have not dealt with NIRC, but my next purchase more than likely will, but I will check prices with all but one other dealer

I won't have to worry about a trade in as I enjoy selling my own MH's. I am able to use the same publications that dealers do, which makes finding buyers easy. The best part is dealers make it easy for me. Most dealers advertise way above high book knowing they will take an offer. Mine priced between low and high book looks like a steal on RV Trader. For $50,000 difference, it's easy for me to make what decisions to do with my coach. I know full timers have a different problem, but my last buyer took 3 months to pick up the coach after the sale. I also purchase the TS and gave the owner until the end of Snowbird season for delivery. Free storage for me

I learned my lesson the hard way, shopping the dealer like Dave & Jenny are doing, is as important as shopping the price. If my dealer is Googled for reviews, I was a fool to set foot on their property. The Crown Club gets real old when you are waiting and waiting for service that never happens. Just my experience.

[MisterT]

I've traded twice with MHSRV, and have dealt with NIRVC's service, and find both to be professional, though on any given day an employee can have a 'bad' day, as we all do from time to time, and sometimes it may come across as 'arrogant' or 'we really don't care'...

I will say this, though, about used Values and trade-ins: every dealer is an individual business and can make decisions they feel is the best for them, not the best for the potential customer, though they may make these decisions based on what 'type' of customer they are looking for... they are all different.
Some take anything on 'trade', some only ClassAs, some only the brands they currently represent, etc. Some base their trade-in values on used book value minus the 'profit margin' they are looking for, while others may be different depending on what you are potentially purchasing and the amount of built-in profit for that unit. Some may just shoot from the hip, and some may really get their calculator out... to each his own.

My experience with MHSRV, both times, was the overall 'package deal' considering their trade-in value for my existing unit, and the pricing of the New unit, not JUST what the used value was, or JUST what the new price is. They also have a wonderful 'PDI' covered full-hookup area for their customers, and give complete attention to all your needs while you are there. I'm sure others do the same.

[Cruzer]

We bought our Cornestone through NIRVC. Dealing with Brett was a real joy and the few service issues we dealt with were handled extremely well. They've definitely earned my repeat business.

NIRVC does stress customer service first so I understand why they don't want certain trade-ins on their lot. They will call their wholesaler for a price quote on older trades and use that number when giving you a quote. They don't mark that number up but just want to move it off the lot and out of the equation. However, sometimes the wholesaler doesn't want to offer much for that particular coach for whatever reason so that somehow tends to reflect on NIRVC as the one who is low-balling, who just doesn't want to lose money on the trade-in. In those cases a buyer may find a better deal elsewhere, which is a win for the buyer as well as NIRVC because they can still uphold their standards of what they sell.

I think Larry's observation of the trade-in end of things pretty much sums it up.

[wnytaxman]

I knew that when I posted my experience with NIRVC I was opening up a can of worms, however potential buyers do need to be aware that not everyone who has contact with NIRVC leaves with all warm and fuzzy feelings. I do, however, want to clarify some things. I have never dealt with them on service so I cannot comment on their service. As you can see some have had good experiences with them and some have not. My experience was strictly on sales.

The idea of discounts off of MSRP didn't really matter to me. I have neither the time nor the inclination to sell my coach so a trade is the only route I would go. That being the case, the only number that mattered to me was the difference after trade. How big was the check I needed to write? That was the only number that mattered to me. I'm a bean counter so bottom line is what I look to.

The first person we talked to at NIRVC was the one who came across as arrogant with an attitude that "We don't want to bother with your Berkshire." That experience is one that others have come in contact with at that same dealership. When I got a follow up call it was from a sales manager who told me that they would wholesale our coach out so that's why their price was so ludicrous. I responded that was fine, but I'm not willing to fork over thousands of dollars because of your business model. If you don't want my business then just say so.

When I posted this on this Forum I received an e-mail from Tadd Jenkins. I have met Tadd a number of times at various shows and have always held him in very high regard. He stated to me that they would love to have our trade and that it was an unfortunate misunderstanding about the trade price. That is the reason we contacted them again before the Hershey Show. We talked to Angie, whom I might add was very professional in her dealings. We got the same exact price that we got before. My concern became one of why weren't they honest with me? Why couldn't they just tell me that they were not interested? Don't insult me by telling me silly numbers for a trade because of your business model. Fairly simple, really. Just be honest. I had talked to MH2Go in Michigan who told me point blank that they could give me a good deal if I didn't trade my coach to them but sold it outright. That was a courtesy I did not receive from NIRVC.

So we went to Hershey and ordered our coach. Great price on the deal and one with which we were very comfortable. The difference was very, very substantial between the NIRVC price and our actual trade price. If their business model is one that they don't want certain trades they should just say so and not waste the time of potential buyers.

To add insult to injury we get a follow up e-mail asking where NIRVC went wrong. Seriously? Let's see, you give me a price that was more than $10,000 higher than what we traded for and you want to know where you went wrong? You tell me that you have to wholesale my coach and then tell me you don't but give me the same exact price. The implication of the e-mail was one that I should rescind my deal and go with them. Ain't happening in this lifetime.

As a side note, our coach was at the dealers for two weeks before it was sold. I think I'm safe in saying that the dealer didn't lose money on the deal.

[LWBAZ]

Thanks Ed – appreciate the additional information.

I understand many owners aren’t in a position to sell their own coach, don’t have the time or inclination to do so, or just don’t want to be bothered. An owner in that situation with an older coach and/or a brand that NIRVC doesn’t choose to resell is well advised to shop elsewhere.

Everything you described about your interactions with NIRVC is true to form as I know it except I don’t understand the arrogance on the part of one of their employees (doubt Brett would be pleased with that), and I don’t understand why they’d contact you again with nothing better to offer than the first time around. That is really baffling and I’m not surprised you were perturbed by it.

Here’s my take: Just as there is no one brand of motorhome that is going to be right for every buyer, I’m quite certain there is no one RV dealership that is going be the best alternative in every situation. Do your homework (which you obviously did) then make the decision that is right for you (which you obviously did).

Good luck with the new ride once you get it and best wishes for many happy miles on the big wide road of RV adventure!