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Old 02-13-2019, 01:44 PM   #43
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Turbojack,

It would seem to me if the can bus (J1939) is reporting other functions correctly to the dash, than the issue is between the temp sensor and the ECM. Wiring, sensor, or connectors......but that’s just my thoughts. I have quizzed a couple techs on this and they say it could be anything and I understand that.....they would need hands on with a scan tool and what every else they use to chase this issue.
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Old 02-13-2019, 03:37 PM   #44
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I'd like to add a couple of thing here, at least for discussion....

As a long time gear head, hot rodder, circle track and drag racer, not to mention 10 year diesel RVer..

250 degree oil is hot.
I don't care if it's in an engine, a transmission, or ever a frying pan, 250 is HOT.

I am totally not repeat NOT buying that 260 is normal, but 262 is a CEL.

I'd really like to hear from others with the X15 ( CHUCK????) but really, an anime is an engine.
The oil cooler thermostat should open at 230, and the oil should never get to 250.

And setting a CEL is not, repeat NOT ever normal operation.
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Old 02-13-2019, 04:03 PM   #45
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I was bring up the oil temp sensor being hard wired to ECM is because Gary had said the ECM history showed high temp of 276 but the dash was showing somewhere close to 237 + / -. I was wondering why the difference. After Gary's comments about the other errors of information from the back missing during that time he was thinking the buss was the problem. I now feel the difference at that time was the cause of the buss and the dash was holding the last reading it saw thus the two different readings.

Everyone I have talked to about this is wondering why Cummings would be setting the oil cooler thermostat to 260 on this engine.

Gary, I may have missed it but when you were driving and having he high temp shutdowns was it raining?
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Old 02-13-2019, 07:09 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneknight View Post
I'd like to add a couple of thing here, at least for discussion....

As a long time gear head, hot rodder, circle track and drag racer, not to mention 10 year diesel RVer..

250 degree oil is hot.
I don't care if it's in an engine, a transmission, or ever a frying pan, 250 is HOT.

I am totally not repeat NOT buying that 260 is normal, but 262 is a CEL.

I'd really like to hear from others with the X15 ( CHUCK????) but really, an anime is an engine.
The oil cooler thermostat should open at 230, and the oil should never get to 250.

And setting a CEL is not, repeat NOT ever normal operation.
👍👍👍 I totally agree.
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Old 02-13-2019, 10:42 PM   #47
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No, dry as a bell. Think it was dry the day before, but maybe raining the day before that. The shutdown just came out of the blue but sure got my attention.

Had another conference call between Spartan and Cummins and me. I think that I am heading back to a Cummins shop... not firm yet but think it is going to happen. I think the issue this time is the oil thermostat. I have been providing them the same written narrative of what happens and what I am seeing to the Cummins and Spartan people.

I keep wondering if the written Cummins engine specs which shows the oil thermostat at 260 might be a typo or mis-engineering and it should be lower. What Richard is saying would suggest a top-end temp of maybe 250 rather than 260. That would also increase the spread between the oil temp and oil thermostat and the temperature that throws a CEL. I would be interested in what the oil thermostat is set at on an ISX-15. They should be identical. I have 5 more ponies, but that can't fundamentally change the engine specs. Richard, I am assuming that you cabs are running the ISX-15???

Real mystery. Must say, Cummins and Spartan have been very attentive and very actively involved. No complaints at this point. They are knocking their heads just like I am.

Gary
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:08 PM   #48
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Gary, I posted your comments on a ISX truckers forum and have some thoughts:

First of all, As an example,... the ISX CM870 engine, the oil temp usually hovers around the 215 - 220 mark unless under a hard pull. Under a hard pull, it is not unusual to see the oil temp sitting ~ 40-F above the water temp(225-230~ish). Above 245-F is considered high, and THE TEMPS YOU ARE DESCRIBING, 260+ ARE WAY TOO HIGH --

So....

* The oil temp sensor could be bad. -- Replace the oil temp sensor + verify the oil temps seen in the dash are correct and not something wonky.

Assuming the oil temps did reach those high numbers for a moment ... Incorrect factory program? Where the HP is set too high for the vehicle?) WILL MAKE ONE HAVE EXCESS OIL TEMPS!!! -- That was my first thought.
Make sure the program in the engine matches exactly the program required by the data-plate, and re-flash it to the latest update(s) while your at it.

* Obviously, your descriptions would also point heavily towards a bad oil thermostat that is stuck OPEN?

* extreme excess boost levels from the turbo either due to bad programming or bad turbo controller... -- What is the boost pressure getting to max? - This also usually is accompanied by turbo alarms usually, but that was not mentioned.

* {cm570/870/871} Bad timing actuator can make the oil get hot like that (due to too far advanced injection timing) - and will kill a piston after a while.

* A spun bearing can make the oil over-heat like that,.. just another possibility.

* {cm570/870/871} Could also be a bad ECM that is firing a timing actuator incorrectly (although very unlikely). Should be easily found with some testing.

* It can also have a slipped cam in it... Have the cams wedged again to be sure this did not happen, and go from there.

Coach's Inherently run hotter than trucks due to inadequate cooling, you cannot get around this. it will run in the higher temps of normal, but should not throw a CEL. Above 250 is hot, 255 i would be letting my foot outa it, and 260 i would have started backing out seriously. At 605/1850 in a x15 with emissions intact its going to run 240-250 under full load as you are at the highest power its rated for, crappy cooling, climbing a hill, and its warm out. i would not be concerned if you could maintain 250 max under those conditions.

These guys watch their engines like a hawk.
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Old 02-14-2019, 06:08 AM   #49
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Smitty, good information. I found the same information from the professionals that drive their trucks 18 hours a day. They broke it down as you did as for the temps. Oil is oil, it is not formulated for heat ranges of different engines. If 250* is burnt oil, it would still be burnt if in a 350 or a 605. After this post I will watch mine more closely.
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Old 02-14-2019, 07:21 AM   #50
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Gary, the engines I referenced were X 15s. We do have ISX 15s in the fleet and I spoke to one of the drivers this morning and his oil temp is running in the 200 range. This engine is a ISX 15 505 Hp @1850 ft lbs torque.

If you were to have a spun bearing that will show up in the oil analysis as wear metals and they can tell when the metal came from by the type of metal.
As the Cummins rep mentioned the oil cooler is a water to oil cooler. I believe you posted the water coolant temp was running 181 so the cooling package is doing it’s job on the water coolant side. But is the oil cooler stat opening and closing when it should?

Good that Cummins and Spartan are working together on this and not pointing their finger at each other.
They will get to the bottom of this together.
Hang in there Gary.

Richard
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Old 02-14-2019, 09:23 AM   #51
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Smitty and Richard.... great information. Thank you.

I am going to post a spreadsheet of data that I got from SPEEDCO oil analysis. Their printer was not working so had to take pictures of the screen and these data are transcribed from those pictures. Not sure if anyone else really has ever paid any attention to this information.... I know that I have not, before this oil change. Was only $25 which is nice, but have no real idea of what it is telling me. I have begun reading the literature which is on the WEB but have yet to find a dumbed-down for first timers explanation. There are only two items which show as abnormal, and I put their cells in yellow. They are V40C and V100C which I think means a viscosity reading done at two temperatures.... 40 degrees Centigrade and 100 degrees Centigrade. Both show as abnormal. How abnormal is a mystery to me at this point. Now, what that means in the big picture is also still a mystery to me. I believe the rest of the analysis shows nothing important, but some of you may understand better.

As usual, any comments would be appreciated.

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Old 02-14-2019, 09:42 AM   #52
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Gary I just sent the report to our oil rep for him to interpret for us.
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Old 02-14-2019, 09:44 AM   #53
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Quick responses to some of Smitty's points

1.) My coolant temps virtually never move. They get to 181 +/- 2 and stay there like a rock. While climbing that mountain and getting the CEL, I noticed the coolant had climbed to 183 +/- and stayed steady.

2._ Cummins and Spartan in the past have told me that Oil temp should be within 40 degrees of the coolant temp (which should be ~ 220 for me on that basis)(I am never that low.... 237 to 240 used to be the normal temps)

3.) Cummins Phoenix replaced the oil sensor already. Found nothing wrong with the first one, but to get me going, put in a new unit.

4.) ECM was reflashed when they put in the new sensor. I see other things in the coach that argue that the ECM has been updated and some new things start appearing. ECM was flashed several times back in November at a Freightliner shop. I have no idea how to determine what the flash number is... is there a version number somewhere?

4.5) I would tend to believe from all the feedback that the thermostat, if set to 260, is just the wrong thermostat for this engine.... Logic (mine) would set the thermostat to 250 or 245 so that there is a 10 - 15 degree window before the CEL is thrown. It also would open much sooner and never get as high.

5.) No problems (but also not paying attention to most of this) for ~ 13,000 miles traveling all through NE states until last November. Climbed a bunch of NE type hills. Never a CEL or a concern (but also not paying much attention to it).

6.) Sorry, i really don't know the turbo boost typical pressures. That has been a topic on here and either from looking at mine or from reading a previous thread, I would say mine are in the mid-20s when pulling, but again, I really would not swear to any of that.

Gary
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Old 02-14-2019, 01:02 PM   #54
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ISX oil cooler thermostat opens around 235. As far as turbo boost under a heavy load it should be in the mid to upper 30’s.
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Old 02-14-2019, 01:27 PM   #55
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Gary,
Just spoke to the folks that have tested fuel and oils for us.
The tech questioned the results of test that shows the viscosity at 40c @ 8.7.
He wonders if that is a typo and should be 87.

I’m looking at a data sheet for a CK 4 10W30 diesel oil. Here is the viscosity at 100C and 40C.

Viscosity@100C 12.2
Viscosity @ 40C 82.8

He said if the viscosity was 8.7 at 40C it would be as thin as diesel fuel and who every was changing the oil should have noticed that.

Also here are the viscosities for CK 4 15W40.

100C cSt 15.0
40C cSt 110.2

He suggest verifying the test results with Speedco.

Yes more confusion.

Richard
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Old 02-14-2019, 02:04 PM   #56
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Richard

Thank you. Yes, that screw-up was mine. The Viscosity V40C was 87, NOT 8.7. I had to transcribe from a picture and I transcribed it incorrectly. Its 87.

Now, with correct numbers of 87 (V40C) and 12.1 @ V100C it appears that those numbers fall below the range of numbers shown as V40C limits (92-124) and V100C limits (12.5-16.3) which I am assuming is why they show as "abnormal"

Also, thanks JH. I am still wondering if the spec is written incorrectly at Cummins for the X15....

Gary
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