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Old 06-24-2018, 01:28 PM   #1
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Some things I have learned on new 2019 Cornerstone - Part 3

Well, not surprisingly, I am continuing to learn new things about my Cornerstone. I have not driven the coach since bringing it back from NIRVC in Atlanta and taking delivery. I have published two previous sets of notes on what I am learning, and this will be the beginning of Part 3.

What is most obvious is that we need to get Spartan, Entegra, Valor, Michelin, and all of us owners together and get all on the same page on tire inflations and tire warnings. After asking for other owners 4-corner weights and Larry’s advice on high cube weights, I took an average and then modified from there. All my “assumed weights” and pressures were within the Michelin tire recommendations and profited a lot from other owners weights/pressures/and logic. However, what is clear is that what we think needs to inflated in our coaches, what Valor assumes we are going to inflate to, or what the factory/dealer assume is the right pressures is all over the place and something is definitely wrong.

I drove from Shreveport to Tyler, TX about 90 miles, Drove at 62 mph as usual. Spent hours before I left calculating the correct tire pressures in all positions for my assumed weights. My pressures were 105# on both tires on the steers, 96# on all 4 tires on the drives, and 96# on both tires of the tag axle. After about 15 miles, the Valor system sounded off that I was over-inflated on all four drive axle tires, one of the steer tires (right front) and one of my Honda tires (set to 30# cold on a cool morning). I did not get red lights, but got amber and a separate yellow warning on the valor display and yellow warnings on each of those tire positions. Stopped at the Texas welcome center and measured the tires, and I was WAY over those specified inflation pressures (apparently due to the mileage and the ambient (~ 95 degrees), so once again, I let out substantial pressure out of all the drives, and the one steer just to turn off the alarms. Since the tires were hot all the pressures were meaningless, but I let out enough air to get close to what I wanted as cold pressures even though hot. That turned off all the alarms and should be OK for temporary pressures. Let the coach sit a day and read the Valor measure of my pressures (now cool). Here are the pressures from the next day from the Valor Dash Display in Valor-type display format
-----------------------Coach-------------------Honda-------------
_______118______93________98……….34…………36………(Right)
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_______121______95________100………34……….36……….(left)

These are the pressures obtained from my good quality truck tire gauge (the next morning Cold)

_______116______92__________99…….38……….39………..(Rig ht)
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_______115______92__________99…….37………..32………..(Le ft)

Now, what I did not record were the hot pressures that were setting off the Valor alarms and forced me off the interstate but they were really high and I let out a lot of air from almost every tire to quiet things down at least 10 pounds out of each tire)(and I had set all pressures carefully with the same truck tire gauge)..

Now, what is apparent to me is that either the alarm trigger points were set way too low in the Valor programming for the pressures that my tires needed to be set at given my assumed 4 corner weights based on other similar coaches 4 corner weights, or some other factor. I never discussed the percentage gain in pressure per tire that was pre-programmed into the Valor tire sensors, if any. Or the temperature rise amounts before alarms. In my dash display, there are two columns of dashes which may well be the trigger points but are empty. From my TireMinder system, there was a settable owner defined “normal” pressure (based on 4 corner weights) and then an automatic percentage increase before being defined as a problem and a temperature rise percentage per unit of time that defined a possible blow out. I had nothing to do with setting any of those parameters for the Valor system. I don’t know if they can be set or are automatic, and I have no idea what the definition of “normal” pressure for my tires was. So, I am going to talk to the Valor dealer and try to get a clear idea of what is involved. Since I believe that any parameter has to be done with their hand digital programmer, I may need to borrow the programmer to make all this make sense for my coach. All we did at the dealer when we added the Honda was to get the system to recognize 4 more sensors. However, setting the pressure based on other's weights and Michelins tables produced more lights on the dash than my last Christmas tree.

I will publish more as I understand it more fully. I assume that I need to input the pressures that are optimal for my coach, then let it (or me) determine how much pressure increase is normal and temperature rise is normal before triggering alarms… If you understand this better than I do, I am ready to learn………...


Gary
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Old 06-24-2018, 01:58 PM   #2
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Oh, and to the best of knowledge, I never got a manual for the Valor system.... does anyone have one?

Gary
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Old 06-24-2018, 04:24 PM   #3
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Gary, air your tires to the recommended pressure cold and forget about them, as far as gaining pressure. They will gain 20-30 psi on the steers and 10-20 psi on the others. I don't have your tpms system, but there should be a way to raise the alarm pressures on your system. One thing I can tell you for sure once you have set the cold pressures you should never let air out of your tires just to satisfy your tpms.
Those pressures showing on your tpms picture are well within the expected pressure rise on a hot tire. I run 115 in my steers and have seen 140+ on a hot day.
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Old 06-24-2018, 04:41 PM   #4
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J.H.

I agree with you.... even when I let air out of my tires hot I still have sufficient air pressure in them while they were hot to have them safe as I drove down the road. I am sure that the issue is either that the "normal" pressure programmed into the TPMS is wrong, and therefore the percentage increase in pressure produced by driving was way off also, or the "normal" pressure rise has not been programmed correctly. Notice that my tire pressures the next day (from the Valor) and the day after done with the truck tire gauge were both done cold and were within the safe parameters for my tire's load and Michelin specs.

I understand you saying to do the tires cold as standard, and then forget what I am getting out of the TMPS, but it is beeping and flashing all the time when the tires are incorrectly considered "over pressure" when they arent and you cannot distinguish a tire that is actually heating up because of a problem and getting ready to blow..... I would rather not have a TPMS system at all than have one that is sounding when "normal" pressures and "expected" temperature and pressure rises are indicating false problems. It was driving me crazy..... so I let out enough pressure to still be well within proper tire pressure inflations for the tires and the loads, and still turned off the alarms... If I could disconnect it totally I would. worse, I dont see how any of it can be changed unless I have the programmer unit to change the parameters..... With my TireMinder system, I could set the normal pressure, and the problem rise in temperature or pressure (or loss of pressure) was determined by the system or me. Maybe there is a way to change it in an owners manual that I dont have.... Regardless, it is a problem that I need to solve.... I dont want constant warnings that are meaningless.

Notice that my cold pressures are both indicating that my pressures are still WNL (within normal limits).

I am assuming the system is operating correctly but has bad data entered into it (or no data) but i guess that the system may simply be faulty and I need to get it replaced. After I talk with the Valor man, I will know more..

PS: JH the pressures in the picture are the pressures measured the next day after my trip and are "cold" pressures (I had added no air)(the pressures done by the truck pressure gauge were cold pressures also the next day) and so even after I let pressure out of the tires I was still in a range that was safe

Gary
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2019 Cornerstone 45B, X15-605hp, 2015 Anthem 44B ISL-450
2013 Honda CR-V toad, Demco Excali-Bar II,
Demco Baseplate, Demco Toad Light system, 73 de W5Fi
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Old 06-24-2018, 04:56 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary.Jones View Post
J.H.

I agree with you.... even when I let air out of my tires hot I still have the same air pressure in them while they were hot to have them safe as I drove down the road. I am sure that the issue is either that the "normal" pressure programmed into the TPMS is wrong, and therefore the percentage increase in pressure produced by driving was way off also, or the "normal" pressure rise has not been programmed correctly. Notice that my tire pressures the next day (from the Valor) and the day after done with the truck tire gauge were both done cold and were within the safe parameters for my tire's load and Michelin specs.

I understand you saying to do the tires cold as standard, and then forget what I am getting out of the TMPS, but it is beeping and flashing all the time when the tires are incorrectly considered "over pressure" when they arent and you cannot distinguish a tire that is actually heating up because of a problem and getting ready to blow..... I would rather not have a TPMS system at all than have one that is sounding when "normal" pressures and "expected" temperature and pressure rises are indicating false problems. It was driving me crazy..... so I let out enough pressure to still be well within proper tire pressure inflations for the tires and the loads, and still turned off the alarms... If I could disconnect it totally I would. worse, I dont see how any of it can be changed unless I have the programmer unit to change the parameters..... With my TireMinder system, I could set the normal pressure, and the problem rise in temperature or pressure (or loss of pressure) was determined by the system or me. Maybe there is a way to change it in an owners manual that I dont have.... Regardless, it is a problem that I need to solve.... I dont want constant warnings that are meaningless.

Notice that my cold pressures are both indicating that my pressures are still WNL (within normal limits).


Gary
Don't you have the capability to set the pressure limit, both low and high, that causes the alarm?
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Old 06-24-2018, 05:05 PM   #6
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If you have that capability, and you should, I'd set the steers 100 minimum and 145 max. All others at 85 mininum and 125 max. That will keep the alarm off and give you plenty of margin.
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Old 06-24-2018, 05:09 PM   #7
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If it can be done, I dont know how to do it.... that makes sense. Again, I was given no manual. You might remember that I was also not given any manuals from Spartan and from Cummins and from Onan (and maybe Valor since it is a Spartan addition) and the reason was that Spartan did not yet have the thumb drives ready yet and they will mail them to owners as soon as they are available ??!!??!!

Gary
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Old 06-24-2018, 05:17 PM   #8
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Will page 38 help? http://www.valortpms.com/sites/defau...5%28web%29.pdf
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Old 06-24-2018, 05:25 PM   #9
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Gary, you have it right that the problem is your tire pressure monitoring system. And J.H. (Rollin101) is right that you want to set your tire pressures “cold” and only worry about them if there is a leak or a very significant rise in temperature and/or pressure.

I put “cold” in quotes because the term as applied to setting tire pressures doesn’t really mean cold like on a cold day, it means setting the pressures after the tires have been stationary long enough to not be hot from running down the road. Ideally, you can set cold tire pressures with no sunlight on any of the tires, but do the best you can and go with it.

Out here in Arizona, I’ve always set tire pressures with the coach inside our enclosed RV garage. If I do that in the morning during the summer months, then hit the road in the middle to late afternoon when it’s ridiculously hot and the sun is blazing down, we’ll of course see fairly big increases in temperature and pressure. Every tire expert I’ve ever spoken with has assured me that is normal, the tires are designed to handle it, and the “cold” inflation tables take it into account.

I know nothing about the Valor TPMS but based on your posts I’m not sure I want it. I had a TireTraker TPMS (virtually identical to your TireMinder) for years and now have a TST 507 system with a nice color monitor. I did plenty of research before buying either system and have never come across a tire pressure monitoring system that didn’t allow the end user to have at least some control over what triggers an alarm. If the Valor system doesn’t allow that, I would consider it to be a fatal flaw.

For what it may be worth to your recent experiment, the default high temperature setting on the TST system is 158 degrees F and they recommend leaving it there for all types of tires. I run 100 to 105 PSI in my steer tires and 100 PSI in all six out back. In the TST system, I left the high temperature setting at the recommended 158 degrees, set the low pressure alarm to 85 PSI, and the high pressure alarm to 130 PSI. The coach has over 8,000 miles on it and I can’t recall getting a single high temperature alarm, low pressure alarm or high pressure alarm so far. Then again we haven’t driven in insanely hot weather as yet, so I won’t be surprised if I end up needing to move the high pressure alarm set point up a bit.
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Old 06-24-2018, 05:35 PM   #10
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Chuck

Thanks for finding and it helps a little. What it is describing is a system completely different in implementation than our Entegra/Spartan implementation. The display and control is not at all similar to our units. The one thing that it may clear up is that the tire position pressure may turn from green to yellow when the baseline pressure (which I have never been able to set) is exceeded by 15% and the tire position pressure turns to red when the tire pressure is greater than 30% above baseline. If that remains true in our implemtation, then that is a big help in understanding the meaning of the light colors. However, it doesnt say how to program baseline, or if baseline can only be programmed with the programmer (makes no sense.... must be possible to program locally from the controls I have) then this will not be an easy fix.

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that all of this probably will be on the thumb drive that I dont have. I'm emphasizing the issue since I am guessing that other new owners are going to face the same problem (unless my system is just broken).

Thanks for finding that however.

Gary
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Demco Baseplate, Demco Toad Light system, 73 de W5Fi
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Old 06-25-2018, 08:06 AM   #11
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Well. I have some partial answers to the Valor TPMS system issue....

I talked to Don Rigby this morning who is the Valor Distributor and the guy that everyone calls to resolve issues with Valor systems. He said my understanding of how the system should work is exactly right. However, here is the kicker. He went to Spartan and programmed tens or hundreds of Valor systems to the weights provided by Spartan, and either those weights were for just the chassis only, or they were for an empty coach, but not a loaded coach ??!!?? So, most owners of 2019 Cornerstones are going crazy with alarms in their systems for over-pressure because the wrong pressures are programmed into the system.

Now, I was wrong in that I assumed that I would be able to program in the actual baseline pressures determined from 4-corner weights using just the user console here on the coach..... wrong. I have to have their programmer/scanner unit to do the programming. That is not a big deal but they have to send it to you and obviously as someone said already, you need to set the baseline pressures based on 4-corner weights (I am using 4 corner weights from 2018 Cornerstones to get my presumed actual weights until I get to a place (NIRVC) where I can get my loaded 4 corner weights) and then program in those weights with the programmer unit which Valor will loan me, and then that sets all the pressures. The reason that my dash is lighting up like a Christmas tree is that the 4 corner weights and "normal" pressures were not done on a fully loaded chassis. The pressures programmed for normal on the drive axle are 80 or 85# pressure which are the absolute minimum pressure recommended for 315 tires by Michelin so normal real pressures (in my case, 96#) on the drives are way too high and therefore, the overpressure state is seen as soon as the tires heat up a little. Same problem with the tags.

This will all get resolved and at some point, we need to get real 4 corner weights to Middlebury or the Dealers so that those can be programmed correctly. Don is very nice and very helpful, and says that "there are a lot of other Cornerstone owners who are calling him with the same problem", so this is something that needs to get resolved. The system is doing what it should do, it has just been given the wrong baseline data. Who decided on those weights? Those weights were probably appropriate for the delivery driver, but are nuts for loaded coach owners who are trying to use the coach.....
Gary
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2013 Honda CR-V toad, Demco Excali-Bar II,
Demco Baseplate, Demco Toad Light system, 73 de W5Fi
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Old 06-25-2018, 08:16 AM   #12
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Thanks for the update Gary. That is now on my list for delivery. Hopefully it will save me from the same problem.
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Old 06-25-2018, 01:44 PM   #13
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Gary, if it were me and I didn't have the capability to adjust the limits, without going through Valor, I would set the baseline for maximum weight especially on the steer and tag tires.
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Old 06-25-2018, 04:13 PM   #14
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I would not be a happy camper if I had a new CS that has too low of pressure in the tires. I do not think it is good for longevity of the tires for the tires to run too low pressures. Damage may already be done to the tires with just the trip from the factory to the dealers.
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