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Old 02-05-2019, 10:49 AM   #1
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Tour of Phoenix Coach repair facilities...... Part #1

I'm beginning to think that we are going to do a complete tour of Phoenix repair facilities. We have now been in three repair facilities totalling 8 days and will be moving to a fourth later this morning. and then back to one of the prior facilities a second time later this week if a part could gets here. Wow!!!!

Problem #1 and facility numbers 1 and 2. Three times on the way to Quartzsite while on I-10 and I-8, I got a very loud warning buzzer and a second or two later, a check engine fault, and a second or 2 later, an Engine Shut Down icon on the dash. The error scrolling on the digital dash was "Excessive engine oil temperature". This was a normal day, on the flat, and driving 68 mph, and an engine shut down error. So, I immediately pulled to the side of the road, and came to a stop and applied the air brakes, and by the time I got the air brakes applied, both the CEL and the Shut down icons had disappeared from the dash. I didn't have time to shut down the Cummins and the icons were gone. So I called Brian at Spartan, and he had no real idea what was going on, but suggested I get under way and see what happened. So I did, and ~ 20 minutes later, in the same conditions, the very loud warning buzzer. CEL and a red engine shut down icon along with the scroll for high engine oil temperature. Responded the same way. Again, strangely, both icons disappeared by the time i came to a stop. Engine still running. Brian still had no answers other than try again. So I did.... but this time, I watched my engine coolant temperature and the oil temperature gauges like an eagle and tried to see every appearance of the oil temperature on the scroll. Engine coolant temperature read out 180 degrees +/- 2 degrees all the time. Engine oil temperature was 237 degrees +/- 2 degrees the whole time, but again, for a third time, at some point, I get the alarm, CEL, and Shut Down icon and excessive oil temps errors which again disappear by the time I get to the berm.

Brian still had no answers as to the problem, but he suggested we lock the fan on so it would turn all the time, and see if that helped matters. So I locked the fan "ON", by transferring the two bolts to the proper position to lock the fan clutch and we tried a fourth time. This time, I made ~ 150 miles with no return of the problem. However, I still watched the coolant temp and oil temps like a hawk and the same situation was evident: Coolant 180 degrees +/- 2 degrees and engine oil temp 237 +/- 2 degrees, in other words, no change, but no faults. Hmmmmmmmmmm, didn't make much sense, but glad to get to Quartzsite. Miles per gallon was down about 1 mpg with the fan turning all the time.

Spartan suggested that I go to Sanderson Ford Commercial and RV division in Phoenix after Quartzsite, which we did. Nice new shop, nice people, 50A electrical connections, friendly / nice service writer. Fault codes showed 3 occurrences of excessive oil temp and some CAN-BUS codes. Their tech saw no relevance of locking the fan but the excessive oil temp codes pointed toward a faulty oil temperature sensor. Diagnosed that as the problem, needed to get a part from Cummins, and would install the next day. Spent the night only to be told that the repair supervisor found out that their shop was not certified to work on a Cummins X-15 605 HP engine, and so needed to be repaired by Cummins Engines shop also in Phoenix. Some heavy hitters at Cummins / Spartan were able to pull some strings and get me an appointment the next morning at the Phoenix Cummins Engine shop. As an aside, they have signs up as Cummins "CoachCare" facility, but they are not at this point a coach care facility.... they do engine work only. Maybe that is in the future. They ran diagnostics and see the same codes, and they look at historical data and see that the ECM reported engine oil temps (at the same time I was looking at them like a hawk) at 276 degrees ( I saw nothing other than 237 +/-), and that 276 degrees threw the codes and shut down signals. However, their tests on the sensor showed it was working just fine. But, because of all my problems, they were authorized to replace the oil temp sensor anyhow. Then, if you remember, my other major problem with this coach has been the WABCO OnGuard RADAR system which has had us in the shop for a total of a couple of weeks. So, Spartan wanted Cummins to run a 90 minute standing-still regen so they could monitor and record the engine and system performance during that 90 minute period and forward that data to Charlotte. After replacing the temp sensor and re-flashing ECM or ECMs, we were ready to depart to NIRVC to get the Fisher-Paykel dishwasher replaced after it failed the third time.

Now, I needed to drive from Cummins Coach care to NIRVC to get the dishwasher replaced and again watched the temp gauges like a hawk. I saw no difference from what I saw when having troubles in the 30 miles between locations. Which brings me to the hypothesis that none of this had anything to do with the actual temperature of the Cummins' oil temperature. However, either an ECM was getting bad data, or was reading normal data as bad data, OR the CAN-BUS is a likely culprit for all these faults and problems. If I had to bet $1,000, my bet would be that most of my past problems and all of this engine heat baloney has to do with the CAN-BUS communication line. I am betting on shorts, bad connections, poor wiring, or ECMS as the source of virtually all of this.

More to come....

Gary
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Old 02-05-2019, 11:01 AM   #2
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Have been following your plight. Hope you are on track for finally getting resolved.
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Old 02-05-2019, 11:07 AM   #3
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Tim

Id really like to know more about what you have been through. Feel free to post back channel or here on the forum. If you contact me back-channel, I will give you my cell and we can talk there. Any information about this sort of problem would be appreciated.

Gary
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Old 02-05-2019, 04:41 PM   #4
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Gary, Are you going to get a job as a consultant? All that you have been thru they could make a movie.

If the problem becomes your CAN-BUS I hope you find where the problem is quick.

I do not understand how all the parts work together but someone that understands it should be able to give us a reason why the ECM is showing one temp and your dash is showing another temp. If both are relying on the one oil temp sensor there has to be a reason the ECM is showing something different then what you are seeing.

Could this be on the order of the Valor not giving the dash good info and the dash is not getting updates of the oil temp so staying with the last data received?

Since it looks like you have gotten all of the latest Cumming ECM updates,you might check and see if Spartan or whoever makes the dash has some new updates.

While typing this I wonder if some CAM-BUSS recorders are available so you can record everything that is coming across the BUSS
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Old 02-05-2019, 05:21 PM   #5
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Gary
My 16 has been without major incident, but also lacks most of the technology of your 19. Just had radiator replaced, but that never stopped me in my tracks, as you have been dealing with. I went to Perry last March with the intention of buying a 2019. My better half put a kabash on that because of a sudden uncertainty of floor plans. I hope for a definitive resolution to your ongoing problems.
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Old 02-06-2019, 09:36 AM   #6
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Gary,

I'm really sorry to hear of your problems and I'm sure in the end you'll be happy. I certainly understand your frustration.
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Old 02-08-2019, 09:17 AM   #7
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Well, bunch of new issues, but also need to continue with my tour of facilities.

My third repair facility in Phoenix was the temporary NIRVC sales and repair shop in north Phoenix. This location is temporary as NIRVC is in the process of building or renovating new facilities that are similar to their facilities in Atlanta, Lewisville (Dallas) and now in Las Vegas. This current temporary facility has an open sort of hanger plan within a walled compound of new coaches and a back lot for coaches waiting for service or parts or there temporarily. A little strange location to get into the first time as my GPS had no idea where it actually was (showed it in the middle of a field), but was careful in my after dark approach. Luckily one of their sales people was there to help me decide where to go. Electrical hook up everywhere and the NIRVC policy of having all coaches plugged in all the time clearly evident. My service writer (Kevin) and the service director (Nick) got right to me the next morning to begin the repairs. These are young guys who know what their job is and how to do it. Also got to become more friends with Cowboy (Robert Langley) the General Manager who I had first met 4 or 5 years ago at Motor Home Specialists in Alvarado. All of these guys were super nice, super accommodating, and super available. Wow! Kudos to the service attitude here in Phoenix. A half day later, my new Fisher-Paykel dishwasher was installed and running and my AquaHot exhaust that I managed to bend at a diesel island was replaced and we said our goodbyes and hooked the Honda to head to the Grand Opening of the NIRVC location in Las Vegas. Got all hooked and fired up the Cummins only to see a message on the dash "Not at Ride Height". Got out to look, and sure enough, the right front passenger side air bag on the steer axle was inflated to the max while the left side and the rest of the coach looked correct. That reminded me that I had not noticed my Cornerstone doing much in the 'raise the whole coach 4" mode' the couple of times I tried to use it in the past. So the mechanics and Nick started a process of exercising the air bags in all positions, removing all the air in the entire coach, re-inflating the whole deal a couple of times before declaring that the Hadley air controller and valve on the right front axle were bad and needed to be replaced by Spartan. Whoa, you gotta be kidding! Both the DW and i came unglued at this point. Another problem?????? And guess what the weather conditions in the upper mid-west were like last Wednesday, Thursday and Friday...... remember, 40 below zero!!!! Entegra closed, Spartan closed, FEDEX closed, USPS closed, UPS closed and would not be open for 5 days more and then we wait for the part. Amazing! After the anger subsides, we notify NIRVC-Las Vegas that we will not make it and hunker down at NIRVC Phoenix for 5 - 8 days until the part arrives.

Now, couldn't ask for nicer people. We had power, we had a dump station and we had a good relationship with everyone there from mechanics and porters on up the chain to the general manager. Could not have been any nicer. Kudos! Order new air system controller on Monday, overnight Tuesday morning, and NIRVC gets me an appointment same day at Massey Truck and Diesel (also in Phoenix) who has an experienced chassis man who can replace the Hadley system. Gave me 2 hours to close up and get to Massey for my 4th repair shop in Phoenix. Now, I would go back to NIRVC Phoenix anytime I have a problem. Great shop philosophy! And they just recruited an experienced chassis man from another local shop and so will become Spartan chassis certified shop soon.

Observing oil temp as I drive to Massey. Don't see any change in typical coolant or oil temps and no shut down codes, so optimistic that maybe we are OK on that repair.

More coming.

Gary
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Old 02-09-2019, 02:00 PM   #8
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Following closely....I really want to buy one but.....
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Old 02-09-2019, 03:03 PM   #9
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Tour of Phoenix Coach repair facilities...... Part #3

So, because the Hadley controller appears to have fatally self-destructed, Spartan was nice enough to honor a request to overnight it to NIRVC. But NIRVC doesn't have a chassis-man at the present (but has one now by reports), and so needs to send me off to yet my 4th Phoenix area repair facility: Massey Diesel company in SW Phoenix area. This is a return visit as Massey replaced my second bad radiator on my 2015 Anthem two years ago and it functioned fine for 2 additional years. Tom is the service manager and he and his chassis mechanic know their way around motorcoaches. So, I was handed the new Hadley controller still in the box, and Nick had set up a next day repair slot at Massey and I have 2 hours to get coach closed up and off to my Massey appointment about a half hour away.

Spartan authorizes 2 hours service time to replace the controller and Tom's mechanic had the job completed start to finish in that 2 hour window. Tom is an easy guy to get along with and knows his stuff. So, 2 hours later he asked where we were going after we left his facility, and we had no plans (we have given up making plans on what we intended to see and do..... we are just in the "Get the coach repaired and reliable mode" at this point), so we said Casa Grande about 60 miles away.

Now, Massey had a place for us to plug in 2 years ago and I think still. We could stay on their property at night which means we didnt need to procure hotels so that is always nice for us and the cats. Not sure about dump station and water, but we were done so quickly we had no chance to find out. However, the Hadley seems to be working fine now. Tom checked it for the whole-coach-raise, and whole-coach-lower capability and that happened quickly. I don't think the Hadley had performed correctly since the day we picked up the coach but it was a new system to me so it took time for me to understand and use its features and realize it didn't work right.

Fingers are crossed the mechanical problems are behind us....


Gary
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Old 02-10-2019, 06:56 AM   #10
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Sure hope you got it all corrected Gary, and can move forward. Following your journey. Safe travels.
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Old 02-10-2019, 10:22 PM   #11
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Crickey Gary, seems like youíre getting a serious workout with the new coach.

Regarding what is happening with your oil temp issue, I will say that we had a wiring issue that plagued us since new, and only disappeared after a 3rd visit to Charlotte, MI.

As you may remember, we had numerous LOW AIR alarms. I was pretty sensitive to this as we had lost the air pump at 7400 miles. Each occurrence of the LOW AIR alarm was somewhat disconcerting.

As it turns out, the final solution was to string a new patch harness from the offending system forward to the dash.

Iím wondering if you may be suffering a similar malady.. that is, there isnít really any actual problem, but the signal is being interrupted or corrupted on its way to the component triggering the warnings up front.

I certainly hope you find a rapid solution to this latest issue.

-Matt
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Old 02-11-2019, 12:24 PM   #12
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Appreciate the comments and ideas Mark and others. I will keep all that in mind.

Well, there has actually been another stage to this saga, and I am ready to detail it at this point. When I last wrote, we had left NIRVC in Phoenix after a new Hadley controller, Fisher-Paykel, and AH exhaust pipe were installed. Still up in the air about the over-heating. Armed with this information, we departed. I was told by Cummins people in Phoenix that if my engine oil temp got about 250 degrees that I was getting close to shut down temps. So, I started from Phoenix to Casa Grande to spend some time in an RV park/resort (not a repair shop....). Watched oil temp gauge on dash constantly and temps gradually crept up to 237 (what I saw on the old temp sensor) and then up to 242, then 244, then 246, and then 248 alternating with brief periods at 250 degrees (a second or two). But 250 was my understanding of getting serious. My coolant temp sat at 180 +/- 2 degrees with the fan now turning itself on and off as needed. I was driving at 68 mph and so slowed to 58 mph to see what happened to my oil temp. After about 10 min of vacillating from 248 to 250, at 58 mph, the oil temps started to drop, but still in the 246-250 ballpark. So, I slowed down to 55 mph for another 30 miles. This was not looking good (I was doing a nice imitation of a 1976 Winnebago Chieftan) . Oil temps fell back to ~ 240 by the time I arrived in Casa Grande, so that was good. Checked oil viscosity and it was normal. Engine oil level was exactly "full" so no new liquids in the oil, and oil color and consistency looked normal (black, slippery). Spent a week here just relaxing and not worrying about the coach but then needed a 4- or 5-way phone consult with my main CS guy at Spartan, plus some others at Spartan, and then a Cummins guy who was further up the chain.

I described the whole thing and then the Cummins guy told me that I had been given a bunch of wrong information. First, he said that temps up to 260 degrees were nothing to be concerned about. He also told me that the X-15 605 HP Cummins engine has an oil cooler system and an oil temperature thermostat that opens at 260 degrees and at 260 degrees permits oil to run through the cooler and lowers oil temps. Well................. THAT is important new information for me and for everyone else that runs this engine. The oil thermostat and cooler does not even kick into gear until 260 degrees. The Cummins man said, "Don't worry about temperature and drive whatever speed I wanted to drive". He also confirmed my impression that this X15 and its predecessor ISX-15 likes to run faster and hotter than my old ISL-450. That has been my experience.... my coach seems to be happiest at around 70 mph, but when I drive at 68 or 69, things are good, revs are right, and it handles many hills without losing more than 25 revs in engine speed. So, mark that down: Oil Cooler system and oil thermostat don't kick in until you hit 260 degrees.

Now remember, I never saw temps higher than 237 when I got 3 successive Shut Down Alarms on I-10 on the way out here. My dash showed no temps anywhere close to 260. Yet, when Cummins pulled the "historical data", the historical engine data said that I had hit 276 degrees three times. The assumption was that the oil temp sensor was defective and it was replaced. Then a mechanic told me the 250 degree danger point, which was not correct. Maybe 270 or 265 is getting close to a shut down danger point, but 260 just opens the thermostat and loops in the oil cooler. So, the assumption is that I did in fact have a faulty oil temp sensor.

Time will tell now if I have future problems. I plan to drive it like I stole it and assume that it will take care of itself.... We shall see. Hopefully my "1976 Chieftain days" are over!

Gary
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Old 02-26-2019, 08:36 PM   #13
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I can now add the Cummins and Onan shop in Tucson, AZ to my tour of Arizona repair facilities.

The Cummins shop in Tucson is a satellite of the Cummins shop in Phoenix. I think that it has been open only about 2 years at this point. There are three indoor bays and one or two outdoor repair bays. They have a full crew of people there, but this shop is maybe 15% the size of the Phoenix shop. I don't think they have a pit there and I don't think they have lifts that are big enough to lift a full size 45' motorcoach. I found all of the personnel to be friendly and personable and reasonable. The mechanics are guys in their 30s it looks like and they look and act well trained. The administration was good also.

The only criticism that I can make for the operation are the following:

1.) They have no 50A power service for coaches or other coach services (water and sewer).
2.) They seem to have few parts for motorcoaches there. I needed an X-15 oil cooler thermostat and that needed to be shipped from Phoenix. I also needed a Onan circuit breaker and that also needed to be shipped from Phoenix.
3.) Now, I was told that most of the business is commercial Cummins engines and Cummins engines used in school buses etc. However, the third day that I was in there for the breaker replacement, there were 4 coaches waiting for repair that day, and two more that drove up and left (maybe needed parts?).
4.) You are also not permitted to stay inside their walls while your coach is waiting for a repair or parts to arrive the next day. You can stay outside of their compound on a cul-de-sac side street, but it would have been nice to be inside the compound.

If you can get into Phoenix, they probably have all the parts that you might need for any Cummins/Onan repair. If you are in Tucson, the Cummins shop there treated us right.... just were short on support facilities for coaches.

Gary
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Demco Baseplate, Demco Toad Light system, 73 de W5Fi
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Old 02-26-2019, 08:39 PM   #14
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Oh, and if someone finds this thread looking for information about a Cummins engine overheating problem, the information above that I was given by Cummins, that the proper oil cooler thermostat opening temperature was 260 degrees was absolutely incorrect. The proper temp for an X-15 605 hp Cummins engine is 235 degrees. The 260 degree spec was an error...

235 degree opening is the right thermostat for the oil cooler unit.

Gary
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Demco Baseplate, Demco Toad Light system, 73 de W5Fi
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