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Old 10-12-2019, 10:34 AM   #1
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Winterizing Surprise

I know winterizing is a bad word to most of the folks here, but, I always have to winterize here in Michigan until we leave out in December.

I drain the entire coach, blow everything out with compressed air and then fill with RV antifreeze just to be sure.

For some reason I had jugs of 4 different types of RV antifreeze sitting around and got the idea to check their freeze protection with my refractometer.

Big surprise when one tested at 20 degrees F for an RV antifreeze advertised as -50 burst protection!! The best I found was only 5 degrees for freezing!

I put a plastic pint container of the "-50 burst protection" RV antifreeze in our house freezer which is at -2 F. It is frozen solid. Same with several other samples of different brands.

I know propylene glycol does tend to not get rock hard and stay sort of slushy but this is ridiculous. Any dilution with water still in the system and you loose even more freeze protection.

If you must winterize I would suggest checking a sample of the product you are planning to use in your freezer first!!!
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Old 10-12-2019, 11:01 AM   #2
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WOW that is a surprise.

So what did you end up finally using that you have confidence in? Pic please if you have one.
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Old 10-12-2019, 05:28 PM   #3
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Al:

As with most things in life........... Trust, BUT Verify !!

Thanks for the well-taken reminder to dig out the refractometer.

Actually, reminds me of a little bit of my life....

My future brother in law, bought Dee and me a bottle of 25 year old single malt scotch for our wedding (a really big deal in 1969, (I had developed a "taste" for it...).. We were so impressed that she and I decided that we would put it on the shelf and let it age in the bottle for an additional 25 years and break the seal on our 25th anniversary, which we did. So, on the evening of our 25th anniversary, we dug out the bottle and prepared ourselves for some fine 50 year old Scotch. And it was the weakest, watered down, terrible tasting single malt scotch I had tasted ever...

It then came out that our teenage son and maybe some of his friends decided to help themselves to our "anniversary scotch bottle" not knowing it was anything special, and after taking whatever percentage they drank, filled it back up with tap water and placed it back on its honored space in my liquor closet.....

The only reason that I wasn't absolutely furious at him was that I remembered that my buddies and I used to do the same thing to our parents liquor closets ~ 35 years before.... Some things never change....
and some things are worth more than a bottle of 25 year old single malt scotch.

Gary
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Old 10-12-2019, 05:41 PM   #4
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Info on freeze point vs burst point. What you describe in your experiment is normal for antifreeze. The copper pipe bursting point at -50F is the protection that the antifreeze is providing. The +12F freezing point means nothing.


https://www.jamestowndistributors.co....do?docId=1144


A freeze point is the temperature at which ice crystals begin to form in the undiluted product. Freeze points are the measurements given when using refractometers and hydrometers. Note: most refractometers provide readings on both a PG and an EG scale, so it is important to use the PG reading when testing this product. Hydrometers are either made to provide PG or EG readings. It is critical to test this product with a hydrometer specifically designed to provide PG readings. Most hydrometers are purchased at auto supply stores and are designed for use with EG, so they cannot be used to test PG antifreeze. Keep in mind that it is normal to see readings that may vary by several degrees from the product's stated freeze point based on ambient temperature or the age of the product. For example, the freeze point of the -50F product is +12F, but it is not unusual to see readings in a range of +12F to +16F. Shake PG antifreeze well before testing as the heavier PG component may have settled toward the bottom.
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Old 10-12-2019, 06:30 PM   #5
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Fill up a cheap water bottle with your test antifreeze and then freeze them, if any of them split the bottle then you have a problem.
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Old 10-12-2019, 06:50 PM   #6
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I was also busted...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary.Jones View Post
Al:

As with most things in life........... Trust, BUT Verify !!

Thanks for the well-taken reminder to dig out the refractometer.

Actually, reminds me of a little bit of my life....

My future brother in law, bought Dee and me a bottle of 25 year old single malt scotch for our wedding (a really big deal in 1969, (I had developed a "taste" for it...).. We were so impressed that she and I decided that we would put it on the shelf and let it age in the bottle for an additional 25 years and break the seal on our 25th anniversary, which we did. So, on the evening of our 25th anniversary, we dug out the bottle and prepared ourselves for some fine 50 year old Scotch. And it was the weakest, watered down, terrible tasting single malt scotch I had tasted ever...

It then came out that our teenage son and maybe some of his friends decided to help themselves to our "anniversary scotch bottle" not knowing it was anything special, and after taking whatever percentage they drank, filled it back up with tap water and placed it back on its honored space in my liquor closet.....

The only reason that I wasn't absolutely furious at him was that I remembered that my buddies and I used to do the same thing to our parents liquor closets ~ 35 years before.... Some things never change....
and some things are worth more than a bottle of 25 year old single malt scotch.

Gary
Dad had a new bottle of Jack at home, I was short on cash before payday while working the summer before my junior year at college, relieved the contents from the bottle on Tuesday (carefully not to rip the paper state seal) and refilled it with tea, planning to replace it when I got home from work on Friday. When I arrived home on Friday, to my surprise, his brother/ my godfather was there and within five minutes they opened the altered bottle, I was asked did I know what happened. I quickly went out to my car and got them the replacement bottle and had a few with them, along with a few good laughs. They were very understanding.
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Old 10-13-2019, 05:50 AM   #7
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I thought this pink stuff (anti-freeze) would freeze in very cold weather, but does not expand like water? Going to have to check this out - there are most likely a few experts on here in this area that know
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Old 10-13-2019, 07:11 AM   #8
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Straight antifreeze will freeze at higher temp than when it has been mixed 50/50 with water.

The added water also improves its heat transfer ability and the suspension in solution of its additives.
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Old 10-13-2019, 07:21 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jestal View Post
I know winterizing is a bad word to most of the folks here, but, I always have to winterize here in Michigan until we leave out in December.

I drain the entire coach, blow everything out with compressed air and then fill with RV antifreeze just to be sure.

For some reason I had jugs of 4 different types of RV antifreeze sitting around and got the idea to check their freeze protection with my refractometer.

Big surprise when one tested at 20 degrees F for an RV antifreeze advertised as -50 burst protection!! The best I found was only 5 degrees for freezing!

I put a plastic pint container of the "-50 burst protection" RV antifreeze in our house freezer which is at -2 F. It is frozen solid. Same with several other samples of different brands.

I know propylene glycol does tend to not get rock hard and stay sort of slushy but this is ridiculous. Any dilution with water still in the system and you loose even more freeze protection.

If you must winterize I would suggest checking a sample of the product you are planning to use in your freezer first!!!
Just blow it out with air and stay safe - Put a bottle of that air in the freezer - Wait - Wait............ - Correct it Did Not Freeze - Did not even get slushy. - - -


JMHO,
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Old 10-13-2019, 01:42 PM   #10
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2018 aspire: where in the manual will you find the winterizing instructions? I have found the storage of your coach instructions but no step-by-step on winterization...
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Old 10-13-2019, 02:20 PM   #11
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If you don't have the correct manual, you can go to Entegra's site and download the 2018 "Aspire Winterizing Manual". Thanks,

BG
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Old 10-13-2019, 02:29 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwoodofd View Post
I thought this pink stuff (anti-freeze) would freeze in very cold weather, but does not expand like water? Going to have to check this out - there are most likely a few experts on here in this area that know
Believe this is the way plumbing anti-freeze is supposed to work.
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Old 10-13-2019, 02:45 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jestal View Post
I know winterizing is a bad word to most of the folks here, but, I always have to winterize here in Michigan until we leave out in December.

I drain the entire coach, blow everything out with compressed air and then fill with RV antifreeze just to be sure.

For some reason I had jugs of 4 different types of RV antifreeze sitting around and got the idea to check their freeze protection with my refractometer.

Big surprise when one tested at 20 degrees F for an RV antifreeze advertised as -50 burst protection!! The best I found was only 5 degrees for freezing!

I put a plastic pint container of the "-50 burst protection" RV antifreeze in our house freezer which is at -2 F. It is frozen solid. Same with several other samples of different brands.

I know propylene glycol does tend to not get rock hard and stay sort of slushy but this is ridiculous. Any dilution with water still in the system and you loose even more freeze protection.

If you must winterize I would suggest checking a sample of the product you are planning to use in your freezer first!!!
Your testing methods are flawed.

There is a great video on YouTube from Splash (one of the makers of the RV antifreeze) which explains this well.

The pink RV antifreeze should properly be called anti-burst, not anti-freeze. The whole purpose is to prevent your plumbing system from experiencing damage due to expansion, not due to freezing. The substance that makes up the pink antifreeze will in fact freeze well above the burst rating on the jug. Their website tells you that.

The difference between the RV antifreeze and water is substantial though. Water will freeze AND expand. The expansion is what does the damage. The RV antifreeze will freeze and NOT expand until reaching the stated temps. Hence, no damage.

Automotive antifreeze stays liquid until the stated temp on the chart on the side of the jug. Has to so that your engine can turn over and start. The engine needs the antifreeze to remain liquid so that the water pump will function and the engine can turn over. If you put RV antifreeze in an auto engine it wouldn't suffer burst damage, but the engine would not be usable once the stuff froze.

The RV antifreeze is being used when the plumbing system is idle. There is no need for the stuff to remain liquid since it doesn't need to be pumped or to circulate through the system. It just needs to not expand.
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Old 10-14-2019, 09:04 PM   #14
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yes I am flawed

Lots of things about me are flawed! My wife reminds me of most of them each day.

I understand refractometers work on PG and EG. All of mine have scales for both.

It still bothers me when a water bottle full of the RV antifreeze feels solid as a rock in the freezer and my coach lines are full of the stuff.

The pure PG mixed 50/50 with water does not do this. So the RV guys simply put enough PG in to call it "antifreeze" and put as little as possible in to keep the cost down. Beware of the sale specials on RV antifreeze.

Little known areas like the icemaker solenoid shut off valve and dishwasher and washing machine fill solenoids do not like even the "slush" idea if there is a little water trapped in them that dilutes the antifreeze further.

Just more info to keep everyone thinking. Thanks for the additional data!
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