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08-25-2014, 08:06 AM
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#1
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Senior Member
Nor'easters Club
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NH
Posts: 942
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You guys are scaring the crap out of me !!
In 09 we decided we were going to upgrade from our 97 Winne Vectra gasser to a DP. Even knowing they were no longer in business, my research indicated that a four slide 38’-40’ Travel Supreme would be the perfect RV for us at the time. This has proven to be the best MOHO decision we could have made and our TS has been borderline perfect (and we have the entry level Envoy). Our “problems” have been so small and insignificant that calling them problems is really an injustice. Granted, TS had the X-bracing issue on some of the larger units, but the addition of the bracing seems to have eliminated that concern. I’m a retired power plant engineer that needs to understand how everything works so I have pretty much crawled into/onto every inch of this MOHO and have found nothing I would consider substandard. Also, I do ALL my own maintenance and with the exception of mounting tires on a rim I have never had any car, truck, boat or MOHO in a service center in my life. I would even go as far as rebuilding the engine myself should it ever be required.
Our original plan was to hold on to the TS until my wife retires in January of 2018 and then upgrade again to something in the 42’-45’ range. My original thoughts were a (well) used Newell/Prevost conversion or possible consider a Newmar, mostly because it is the closest thing to a Travel Supreme out there. Nothing else on the market even vaguely captures my interest. Then Entegra hit the streets and based on the initial reviews I felt TS was reborn and maybe even better. However, after all I have been reading lately I am no longer convinced that I’ll ever find anything as good as what we currently have unless we approach the $700k price range, which is out of our league.
Now I realize there are many owners that have not had significant issues and typically only problems get highlighted on forums. However, I do not read anything (either the number or severity of the problems) on the TS forums like I read here or with the other major manufacturer’s. I will not tolerate 2-3 years to "work out the bugs" on a new coach. Am I reading too much into this or should I start looking for a 08 TS Select to get us through the next 20 years of RVing?
Lou
05 Travel Supreme Envoy
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08-25-2014, 08:33 AM
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#2
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Registered User
Entegra Owners Club
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,516
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Lou,
I think you're reading too much into it. As you said, issues are posted, very little is said about good performance.
We have >13,000 miles and >90 nights in our 2014 Anthem. We have had a few issues but no real show stoppers (not counting a free-flowing ice maker and Entegra no longer uses that fridge). Our last 2 trips, >6,000 miles were 100% issue free.
Our Anthem is our second coach, we had a 2013 Thor for 5 months/9,200 miles. Lots of issues, one put us on the side of the road.
I worked in the aircraft industry for over 20 years, you would be amazed at the issues found on multi-million $ aircraft after the manufacturer says it is ready for delivery to the customer. I am not disappointed with the issues I have had on my Anthem. (I acknowledge the extraordinary issues a few, like Brobox, have had but I think they are the exception rather than the rule.)
Buy an Entegra, you won't be disappointed!
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08-25-2014, 08:39 AM
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#3
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Senior Member
Entegra Owners Club
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 6,686
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I think you are....JMHO, but there a a very vocal small group who have had more than their fair share of problems. And after speaking to Tadd Jenkins at FMCA, I am convinced he is extremely focused on rooting out the quality issues that lead to what appear to be a few, and I hate to use this word, "lemons" (or constructed on Friday).
That said, of course you don't read of these issues in coaches that are 8 years old...most of them have been worked through...maybe OEM folks were providing a better product to the industry then...and there is undoubtably a little trying to find the best OEM for the least cost.
But....for 700K, you're probably talking a 7-8 year old Prevost (and there weren't many made in 2008-09) or a 5-6 year old Newell. I guess as I looked at that alternative, I thought about driving a 7 year old coach for another 10 years, and I wondered about maintenance costs. My next door neighbor here at Stone Ridge had got me to looking in that direction...then he just put $7K into his Prevost for a new slide seal and a washing machine motor...so it isn't a panacea.
brobox will probably say he wishes he'd have kept his Travel Supreme, because of his problems with his Anthem. There are about 250 Entegra owners on this forum...about 20% of the total population. Those with many problems are a small number. For myself, with my 2013 Anthem, I had a punch list totaling maybe 90 items, significant and less so about 1.5 years of living full time in the coach, but I stayed on the road, fixed many myself, and had a great time. I just purchased a Cornerstone and I have a few delivery punch list items, generally small, and the number is less than 10. It is a great coach with a great ride.
I guess my view is buy with confidence, whatever the company, and expect a few things. The full time lifestyle is worth the risk of getting one of "those" coaches. Or, the less risky approach...keep your Travel Supreme...it is a good coach. But saying that folks didn't work issues with coaches in those days belies what I've been told by owners of TSs, Monacos, Newmars, Winnebagos, and all the rest. Nothing seems to change that changes!
__________________
Dave and Beth
2015 Cornerstone 45J
2020 Ford F-150 Lariat
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08-25-2014, 08:47 AM
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#4
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Stillwater, Ok
Posts: 4,812
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My Anthem is a MUCH better coach and much more trouble free than my 2007 Travel Supreme and it was very good. You are right, same heritage just improved and upgraded. We just completed a 5379 mile trip in our Anthem and with our neighbor with his Aspire without an issue. Great motorhomes and the most bang for your bock . All JMHO
__________________
2020 New Aire 3543
2018 Lincoln MKX
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08-25-2014, 08:55 AM
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#5
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Senior Member
Newmar Owners Club Freightliner Owners Club Spartan Chassis
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: ON THE ROAD...SOMEWHERE
Posts: 6,973
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Lou....I agree with TXbart...step away from the monitor and take a deep breath! LOL
Keep in mind that there are LOTS of positive posts from various owners of various manufacturer's models. Still, these kinds of forums tend to be slightly skewed to those looking for solutions to problems or just gripe. I'm certain you had some issues with your TS that you have forgotten.
OTOH...I'm with you about affording a $700K unit. I will never buy new because we can't afford it. Fortunately we are happy with our "mid line" DSDP and can afford a nice used one in the 5-6 year old range if and when we decide to get something "newer". At that time I think EC Anthems will be on our radar scope along with Newmar DSDPs. The biggest thing is that there are just not enough used Anthems on the market yet to bring the prices down.
From my readings of EC postings my only real concern with the Anthems (maybe Aspires too?) is front axle ratings and what appears to me to be a trend of them being highly loaded out of the factory affecting usable CCC. I'm not even sure that is a problem through all model years but something worth keeping in mind. Other than that, most of the EC issues I read about seem par for the course. Of course, there are some real doozies out there that make me scratch my head but then again, that is true for most manufacturers anyway.
In the end...FOR US...new is not only out of our price range but also not worth the HUGE depreciation hit. I also believe that previous owners with good records will tell you if you have a lemon or not. In some ways, searching for a good used MH is harder than finding a new one with specs you like. However...if you don't let it drive you crazy it can be a fun challenge.
Good Luck!
__________________
Don, Sandee & GSD Zeus. Guardian GSDs Gunny (7/11/15) & Thor (5/5/15)
2006 2015 DSDP 4320 4369, FL Chassis, 2013 CR-V 2020 Jeep Overland, Blue Ox Avail, SMI AF1.
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08-25-2014, 09:47 AM
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#6
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Senior Member
Winnebago Owners Club
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 14,885
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I get the impression - because I am one of them - that we are purchasing coaches in the 300 - 500 thousand range and expecting the quality of a 1 million + coach. It appears that MH have not increased substantially in price the last few years. If the manufacturers are able to hold the price it can mean only a couple things. They have managed to reduce the labour cost by paying less for labour, building the coach faster with less quality checks or have automated more of the labour.
When I listen to the massive recalls by the Big 3, Toyota (who excels at quality?) and I compare to the few issues I have identified so far I am very pleased with the initial quality of our coach.
IMO the cost of our units have not kept up with our expectations.
__________________
Gordon and Janet
Tour 42QD/InTech Stacker
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08-25-2014, 10:37 AM
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#7
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Senior Member
Entegra Owners Club
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 8,094
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Gordon, you are misleading yourself if you think a 1 million dollar coach would be much better. They have their issues too. I don't think that any Class A motorhome will be completely trouble free.
It is my opinion that any coach from any upscale major manufacturer has a similar chance of having problems, regardless of its price. The very expensive models generally use the same components as the less expensive one, and the difference is in a better chassis and more luxury and glitz. Most of the problems listed on this site are not chassis problems, so no big upgrade in reliability on that score. I haven't seen a web forum like this for Prevost or Newell owners, but if there were, I'd bet you see a very similar list of problems there too. It is impossible to build a coach as complex as these without an occasional problem.
For the OP, the safest thing to do is keep your current coach which you know is trouble-free. But if you choose to buy a new (or newer) coach, there will be some problems. The problem-free coach is an illusive goal, and may well be unattainable, regardless of price. As Vance said, if a 20-50 million dollar jet airplane can't be trouble-free, why would you expect more from a 250,000 to 1 or 2 million dollar coach?
Having said all that, the problems on my Anthem have been few, and Entegra has been OUTSTANDING about addressing them. Even Brobox, who is unfortunately the poster child for coach problems, seems to be happy at this point.
__________________
Marc and Jill, Wellington FL
2013 Entegra Anthem 44SL
2018 Lincoln MKX
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08-25-2014, 10:54 AM
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#8
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Community Administrator
Pond Piggies Club LA Gulf Coast Campers Outdoors RV Owners Club Entegra Owners Club Skyline Owners Group
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 40,507
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One thing I've learned here & by my own experience is RV-ing is not for the "faint of wallet". Whether new with bugs to work out or used where you have to do your homework/research to be a well-informed buyer, all RV's have issues....whether they cost $10,000, $100,000 or $1,000,000. Until the manufacturers do better at QC/QA, don't let the bad experiences some have had prevent you from doing/buying what you want. Be informed, plan for the worst but hope for the best.
Lori-
__________________
Lori (& Dave, my spirit guide) - RV/MH Hall of Fame Lifetime Member | My iRV2 Photo Albums
2016 Phoenix Cruiser 2350S, 2018 Phaeton 40IH,2006 Bounder 36Z, 2004 Cougar 285EFS, 2000 Aerolite 25FBR
There is great need for a sarcasm font.
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08-25-2014, 10:59 AM
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#9
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Senior Member
Newmar Owners Club
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Polk City, FL
Posts: 3,368
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I think part of the perception issue is about communication and networking. 20 years ago when I bought my first MH I did not use email. I carried a pager. The Internet was around but not in wide use. I had piles of manuals. Now I use an iPad and watch YouTube videos about how to empty my poop tank. I think an RV buyer 10 years ago had a lot less volume and access to information. It's like 24 hr cable news. I can't watch TV without seeing negative news because it is more dominant than the happy news stories.
The other thing is the internet has brought users in communication more that ask "hey, why do you use cheap hose clamps, or why are my axle weights so much difference than this other guy?". Before networking and blogs on subjects you'd have no idea there were such issues....unless you were the dealers and they probably tended not to air dirty laundry. The blogs and networking keep the pressure on dealers and manufacturers. Nobody wants the kind of press that say Norcold developed. It's either be responsive or perish.
Sometimes I post things to let other owners in similar circumstances avoid my mistakes. I hope they do the same without just bitching about their product. Maybe some people have flawless machines, but I'll bet I can find a website where people bitch about their Prevost, Ferraris, or even Learjets. Most often when these complex machines break it causes angst and emotion but you have to back away from that and try to approach it from a problem solving attitude.
IMHO
__________________
Dave & Debbie
2021 Newmar DutchStar 4369
2016 Ford Edge&2019 Ford F-150 toads
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08-25-2014, 11:01 AM
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#10
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 3,059
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Sailor Lou, I am like you in the sense I would rather work on my MH than to have to take it into the shop and let them work on it. We went back and forth new/used due to not wanting to work the "bugs" out, but we also wanted a MH that we knew it's history. We decided on the New Newmar(only a gasser) because of all the research we did pointed to their high quality and great customer service. We have put about 6000 miles on ours and have had some minor nusiance issues. I took it back to the shop twice so far to have things repaired/checked out only because it was under warranty and needed some parts. They let me stay with the MH and watch them do the repairs, so now I know how to fix it if it ever happens again. Both times I took the MH home that day. Our last trip of about 2600 miles we had no issues.
My point is two things, I don't think it will take two years to work out the bugs on a new MH,(ours is 6 months old) but you will always have things to fix due to the nature of the beast. And second it has been my experience with Newmar that they put the same quality effort into the build of the MH, no matter the price point. Good luck in your search and decision.
__________________
Mike & Charlotte
2014 Newmar Canyon Star 3610
Orange County, California
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08-25-2014, 11:20 AM
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#11
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Senior Member
Winnebago Owners Club
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 14,885
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRUSA14
Gordon, you are misleading yourself if you think a 1 million dollar coach would be much better. They have their issues too. I don't think that any Class A motorhome will be completely trouble free.
It is my opinion that any coach from any upscale major manufacturer has a similar chance of having problems, regardless of its price. The very expensive models generally use the same components as the less expensive one, and the difference is in a better chassis and more luxury and glitz. Most of the problems listed on this site are not chassis problems, so no big upgrade in reliability on that score. I haven't seen a web forum like this for Prevost or Newell owners, but if there were, I'd bet you see a very similar list of problems there too. It is impossible to build a coach as complex as these without an occasional problem.
For the OP, the safest thing to do is keep your current coach which you know is trouble-free. But if you choose to buy a new (or newer) coach, there will be some problems. The problem-free coach is an illusive goal, and may well be unattainable, regardless of price. As Vance said, if a 20-50 million dollar jet airplane can't be trouble-free, why would you expect more from a 250,000 to 1 or 2 million dollar coach?
Having said all that, the problems on my Anthem have been few, and Entegra has been OUTSTANDING about addressing them. Even Brobox, who is unfortunately the poster child for coach problems, seems to be happy at this point.
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I have to agree with you. A friend of ours sells MH and the first thing he told us was no matter what we purchased to expect a number of issues.
So far we have experienced very few problems. The ones we had were minor and all of the ones brought to the dealer were quickly rectified.
I have found a few additional issues that I have fixed. It is easier and cheaper than returning to the dealer. Things like screws missing, rattles and sharp edges. I would assume fit and finish issues would be fewer in a hand built coach than in one that is mass produced.
__________________
Gordon and Janet
Tour 42QD/InTech Stacker
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08-27-2014, 11:53 AM
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#12
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Senior Member
Nor'easters Club
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NH
Posts: 942
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Thanks all for you opinions and experiences. Looks like we'll continue on our current plan and consider an upgrade in a few years when we start traveling more. In the meantime I'll keep following the industry and forums to see where it leads. Afterall, if things turn for the worst I can always hang in there with a coach I know and trust.
Safe travels to all,
Lou
05 Travel Supreme Envoy
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08-27-2014, 12:59 PM
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#13
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Senior Member
Entegra Owners Club
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: SW FL
Posts: 31,569
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Lou, you and I have known each other a long time on the forums going back to my TS days. I may upset a few people, but I am honest My Entegra is not a TS, but most of my problems have been Spartan related, which has really been a surprise. I am going in next week for a complete axle housing change since my last rear end change is making noise again. I have had it with the new coach as I got the 1 in 1,000 lemons. Would I ever order another new coach of any brand....no way! I would never buy sight unseen again, too big of a risk for my type luck.
The only thing I blame Entegra for is ever letting my coach leave the factory in the condition it did.
__________________
Chuck in SW FL
Digital 2021 Cornerstone "B"
A "Digital" 2019 Cornerstone "B" Traded
A "Classic" 2014 Anthem 42 RBQ---Sold
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08-27-2014, 01:06 PM
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#14
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Senior Member
Newmar Owners Club Freightliner Owners Club Spartan Chassis
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: ON THE ROAD...SOMEWHERE
Posts: 6,973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brobox
.... I have had it with the new coach as I got the 1 in 1,000 lemons. Would I ever order another new coach of any brand....no way! I would never buy sight unseen again, too big of a risk for my type luck....
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Hang in there Chuck...to be honest, you are probably in better shape to get a new one since you have used your 1/1000 chance. Maybe a new one and a lottery ticket at the same time is your key to easy street. LOL
__________________
Don, Sandee & GSD Zeus. Guardian GSDs Gunny (7/11/15) & Thor (5/5/15)
2006 2015 DSDP 4320 4369, FL Chassis, 2013 CR-V 2020 Jeep Overland, Blue Ox Avail, SMI AF1.
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