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Old 02-26-2016, 11:30 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobGed View Post
I agree. Here's an interesting quote from the article link:

"The suspects had been staying in a Suburban vehicle for at least four days in the parking lot, according to a man camping out in an RV in the parking lot" So the RV owner had been "camping" there for at least four days.
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Originally Posted by KSagal View Post
All too often the press plays it fast and loose with the facts.

And they did not say the RV witness said he had been there with his RV for at least 4 days. You are assuming that.

I speak all the time of things I have heard from other people. I did not have to be there to see it myself.

I am pretty sure Diogenes walked around ancient greece with a lantern during the day looking for an honest man. I was not there in my RV however.

I am pretty sure Moses spoke to the Pharaoh and later left thru a parted sea. I was not there with my RV

I am pretty sure that Hitler and his buddies did some horrible things a while back. I was not there with my RV to see it, but I still am willing to tell reporters it was true.

All I am saying is that maybe someone in a RV said that family was there in their suburban for 4 days, but that does not mean the guy in the RV did not hear others say it, and had only arrived the night before...

We just do not know. And, of course, the RV guy may have been there dry camping for 2 weeks. We just do not know.
I live in the area........
,
The parking lot is (WAS) FULL of several RVs .... same class c, tt and tc everyday regular routine campground in addition to those staying in suburbans/vans etc.

NOW the parking lot is clean & unencumbered with urine bottles, trash and fluids plus one can walk from parking lot to store w/o being accosted/harassed.
Walmart wasn't address it.
THANK YOU Cottonwood City Council
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Old 02-26-2016, 12:19 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old-Biscuit View Post
I live in the area........
,
The parking lot is (WAS) FULL of several RVs .... same class c, tt and tc everyday regular routine campground in addition to those staying in suburbans/vans etc.

NOW the parking lot is clean & unencumbered with urine bottles, trash and fluids plus one can walk from parking lot to store w/o being accosted/harassed.
Walmart wasn't address it.
THANK YOU Cottonwood City Council
Of the various folks you saw camping there, who do you believe were:
Littering?
"Harassing" (I'm curious what constitutes harassment in this context)?
Leaving unidentified fluids about the parking lot in various ways?

(Mods: I'm not baiting. I want to know, as I was never there and have no way to find out without asking what others saw)

I'll wager that the reality is it wasn't the folks in self contained and functional RVs, regardless of how long they might have stayed at the Cottonwood Wal-Mart. I'd even be so bold as to say that the folks in self contained and functional RVs suffered to some degree because of the problems you mentioned, too. (Mods: not baiting, just my opinion, not intended to start a back and forth)

I believe it's highly unfortunate that all RVrs got painted with a broad brush due to the egregiously obvious problems that were likely caused by only a few. It's even more unfortunate that they still are even after the passing of the ordinance by the Cottonwood City Council.

I haven't been able to travel to any larger/ish city or metro area in AZ so far without being asked for money or a ride somewhere at least once. Same with my home area in SW WA/Portland OR. Cottonwood cannot unique in this regard.

PS: I think I'll scratch the Cottonwood area off of my list of places to visit. Not for any one particular reason. There just seems to be so many other places that are more welcoming to travelers in new(er) rigs with money they could spend.

(Mods: Seriously, I'm only asking for opinions from someone that was there. I'm *not* trying to start a heated discussion between myself and another member. Really. I'm not baiting, calling anyone out, or challenging disrespectfully. Only asking for opinions, and leaving it at that.)
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Old 02-26-2016, 12:24 PM   #59
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I suppose Cottonwood City Council could have instead passed the rule about no older than 10 yrs old RVs....
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Old 02-26-2016, 04:05 PM   #60
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good one
what goes around comes around
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Old 02-26-2016, 04:10 PM   #61
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I suppose Cottonwood City Council could have instead passed the rule about no older than 10 yrs old RVs....
They could mandate Wal-Mart to collect a fee. That will clear them out
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Old 02-26-2016, 04:40 PM   #62
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True, we both ranted on. Although, in your earlier post you said something to the effect that only people who own a Walmart should be able to complain about a Walmart.

I don't know where you live, but in the United States, people most certainly have the right to protest and press their elected officials to STOP what they consider to be harmful impacts to their safety and well being. Again, numerous studies support complaints that communities across the country have about Walmart's deleterious effects on their Main Streets. Those deleterious effects in many areas also include overnight camping.

Our county, north of San Francisco, and the other 8 Bay Area counties, prohibit overnight camping any place other than a campground. Big box stores are also limited. Taxpayers are the ones who foot the bills for the enormous infrastructure requirements that Walmart requires, the increases in public services they demand, as well as the impacts they have on the environment. These are further imposed upon when they offer free camping. So, yes, citizens DO have the right to prevent a business from operating with impunity.

In other places, Walmart's continued existence doesn't mean that people support it as often as it means there is no other option.
Regardless of how I phrased it, I meant to say that people aught be very careful dictating how others should act on their own property. I was trying to express that I believe a land or business owner has the right to market their wares, or give away services as they see fit.

But I also agree that if they are doing something that impacts the neighborhood negatively, then that needs be given a fair hearing, and I also agree that people and business owners certainly should be held accountable to public funds that are spent in trying to maintain or clean up activities on private property.

I still maintain that the need for a Walmart precedes it, and therefore the decline in the mom and pop shops precedes it. I believe Walmart and stores like it are the symptom of companies seeing a need and filling it. I do not believe they are leading anything, but are instead following a trend that we both seem to dislike.

As far as a store's continued existence or not, stores need customers. Walmart and Mom and Pop stores alike. If the customers stop coming, the store closes. This is true for any store.

I like to shop a certain way. I do that. I just do not think it is my place to tell others who shop a different way that they must do what I do. If they continue to support a store I do not like, that I will use my time and influence with local officials to make them stop shopping there. (by outlawing the store) There are other people who are happy to tell people that are different than they are, that those differences are unacceptable. I just don't happen to be like that.

I do not agree with all of you points, but do agree that you made some good ones, so I will leave it as we can agree on some items and agree to disagree on others.
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Old 02-26-2016, 04:59 PM   #63
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good one
what goes around comes around
why is my answer here
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Old 02-26-2016, 07:40 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by 1bigmess View Post
Of the various folks you saw camping there, who do you believe were:
Littering?
"Harassing" (I'm curious what constitutes harassment in this context)?
Leaving unidentified fluids about the parking lot in various ways?

(Mods: I'm not baiting. I want to know, as I was never there and have no way to find out without asking what others saw)

I'll wager that the reality is it wasn't the folks in self contained and functional RVs, regardless of how long they might have stayed at the Cottonwood Wal-Mart. I'd even be so bold as to say that the folks in self contained and functional RVs suffered to some degree because of the problems you mentioned, too. (Mods: not baiting, just my opinion, not intended to start a back and forth)

I believe it's highly unfortunate that all RVrs got painted with a broad brush due to the egregiously obvious problems that were likely caused by only a few. It's even more unfortunate that they still are even after the passing of the ordinance by the Cottonwood City Council.

I haven't been able to travel to any larger/ish city or metro area in AZ so far without being asked for money or a ride somewhere at least once. Same with my home area in SW WA/Portland OR. Cottonwood cannot unique in this regard.

PS: I think I'll scratch the Cottonwood area off of my list of places to visit. Not for any one particular reason. There just seems to be so many other places that are more welcoming to travelers in new(er) rigs with money they could spend.

(Mods: Seriously, I'm only asking for opinions from someone that was there. I'm *not* trying to start a heated discussion between myself and another member. Really. I'm not baiting, calling anyone out, or challenging disrespectfully. Only asking for opinions, and leaving it at that.)
Now that NO Overnight parking is allowed.....parking lot is clean, no urine bottles laying around and no one following you asking for GAS, FOOD, Money, Cigarettes.

Problem solved....good enough for me.
You can draw your own conclusions. But as you have said.....you weren't there nor have you been there and if you choose not to go that's all well and good also.
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Old 02-27-2016, 12:10 AM   #65
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But it's not Walmart's property - in many cases it is leased, and in many cases, as the Wall Street Journal reported, Walmart uses tricky accounting by renting the property back to itself to avoid paying municipal taxes. And there are many laws governing retailers, ranging from false advertising to what they can sell and what age groups they can sell it to and the days and times they can sell it. Regulating retailers is nothing new at all and dates back to the dawn of capitalism. Also, Walmart makes @ $500 billion/year, of which retail is just a small part. They are actually closing many stores, but will remain a part of the landscape. The concern should be on the harm they bring to the public, not vice versa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KSagal View Post
Regardless of how I phrased it, I meant to say that people aught be very careful dictating how others should act on their own property. I was trying to express that I believe a land or business owner has the right to market their wares, or give away services as they see fit.

But I also agree that if they are doing something that impacts the neighborhood negatively, then that needs be given a fair hearing, and I also agree that people and business owners certainly should be held accountable to public funds that are spent in trying to maintain or clean up activities on private property.

I still maintain that the need for a Walmart precedes it, and therefore the decline in the mom and pop shops precedes it. I believe Walmart and stores like it are the symptom of companies seeing a need and filling it. I do not believe they are leading anything, but are instead following a trend that we both seem to dislike.

As far as a store's continued existence or not, stores need customers. Walmart and Mom and Pop stores alike. If the customers stop coming, the store closes. This is true for any store.

I like to shop a certain way. I do that. I just do not think it is my place to tell others who shop a different way that they must do what I do. If they continue to support a store I do not like, that I will use my time and influence with local officials to make them stop shopping there. (by outlawing the store) There are other people who are happy to tell people that are different than they are, that those differences are unacceptable. I just don't happen to be like that.

I do not agree with all of you points, but do agree that you made some good ones, so I will leave it as we can agree on some items and agree to disagree on others.
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Old 02-27-2016, 12:21 AM   #66
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People "suffered" when free camping was taken away because free camping wasn't selective? And, Walmart employees should become arbiters of what is a good or functional RV for the free camping? And, because they aren't discriminating and outlawed everyone from free camping, you're calling it "unwelcoming?" Come on, man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1bigmess View Post
Of the various folks you saw camping there, who do you believe were:
Littering?
"Harassing" (I'm curious what constitutes harassment in this context)?
Leaving unidentified fluids about the parking lot in various ways?

(Mods: I'm not baiting. I want to know, as I was never there and have no way to find out without asking what others saw)

I'll wager that the reality is it wasn't the folks in self contained and functional RVs, regardless of how long they might have stayed at the Cottonwood Wal-Mart. I'd even be so bold as to say that the folks in self contained and functional RVs suffered to some degree because of the problems you mentioned, too. (Mods: not baiting, just my opinion, not intended to start a back and forth)

I believe it's highly unfortunate that all RVrs got painted with a broad brush due to the egregiously obvious problems that were likely caused by only a few. It's even more unfortunate that they still are even after the passing of the ordinance by the Cottonwood City Council.

I haven't been able to travel to any larger/ish city or metro area in AZ so far without being asked for money or a ride somewhere at least once. Same with my home area in SW WA/Portland OR. Cottonwood cannot unique in this regard.

PS: I think I'll scratch the Cottonwood area off of my list of places to visit. Not for any one particular reason. There just seems to be so many other places that are more welcoming to travelers in new(er) rigs with money they could spend.

(Mods: Seriously, I'm only asking for opinions from someone that was there. I'm *not* trying to start a heated discussion between myself and another member. Really. I'm not baiting, calling anyone out, or challenging disrespectfully. Only asking for opinions, and leaving it at that.)
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Old 02-27-2016, 12:28 AM   #67
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People "suffered" when free camping was taken away because free camping wasn't selective? And, Walmart employees should become arbiters of what is a good or functional RV for the free camping? And, because they aren't discriminating and outlawed everyone from free camping, you're calling it "unwelcoming?" Come on, man.

But But But.........it's a 'Lifestyle' , an 'Entitlement' , a 'Right'

Anything less is an 'infringement' and 'discriminatory' to RVrs


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Old 02-27-2016, 08:56 AM   #68
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People "suffered" when free camping was taken away because free camping wasn't selective?
Everyone, locals and visitors alike, in that parking lot suffered from the obviously bad acts of a small group of folks. Before the City Council made their decision.

I left Wal-Mart out on purpose, except for the obvious fact that the incident occurred at the store. They've done pretty well at hundreds of other stores, and all of their decisions related to this topic are probably made at some corporate management level, not local or even regional.

I think I'm done with Cottonwood AZ both here and there. Thanks for the enlightening conversation.
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Old 02-28-2016, 09:53 AM   #69
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Hahaha!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old-Biscuit View Post
But But But.........it's a 'Lifestyle' , an 'Entitlement' , a 'Right'

Anything less is an 'infringement' and 'discriminatory' to RVrs


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Old 02-28-2016, 01:23 PM   #70
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I'd just be happy if there was a decent campground near Anchorage. I haven't found one yet so tend to head well north or south when I'd really like to stay closer...sometimes.
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