electric central heat

[Paw John]

I'm been reading on other sites also about some one thinking of replacing their A/C unit or units with heat pumps. I would like to know how much a unit like that would cost. I know I had an A/C unit replaced on my camper after hiting a low hanging elictric line after huricane IKE. It cost me around $ 1000.00 dollars. I really think if enough people ask for the RV Manufacters to come up with an electric heating unit like Cheap Heat. They will comply with the public's needs.

[az bound]

I believe the RV industry will listen to what the consumer wants. It has taken several years but the transition to residential appliances has begun, ie. refrigerators, range and oven, washer/dryer, trash compactor, dish washer, garbage disposal. At one time these were only available in very high end or custom built RVs, but now are being offered as options and even standard equipment by some coachbuilders.

[LadyFitz...]

Originally Posted by Paw John

I'm been reading on other sites also about some one thinking of replacing their A/C unit or units with heat pumps. I would like to know how much a unit like that would cost. I know I had an A/C unit replaced on my camper after hiting a low hanging elictric line after huricane IKE. It cost me around $ 1000.00 dollars. I really think if enough people ask for the RV Manufacters to come up with an electric heating unit like Cheap Heat. They will comply with the public's needs.

You might be thinking of me. When I'm ready to order my TT, I'm going to try to get it without any A/Cs (the wiring would already be inplace but i would have to pull new thermostat wiring). The roof top unit of a heat pump is $200-$250 more than a conventional A/C. The lower unit is roughly the same price. Thermostats will run more since RVs usually have mechanical ones installed and heat pumps usually need a digital thermostat (how much more depends on how sophisticated a thermostat one wants). The total cost more for a heat pump than a conventional A/C would run roughly $300-$350. This does not factor in labor and that the factory credit for not installing an A/C will be less than the retail cost of the A/C.

Replacing an existing A/C with a heat pump instead of another A/C would be even more expensive because the both the roof top unit and the lower unit would have to be replaced, plus the thermostat. If the A/C is still good, it would be hard to justify the expense from a cost effectiveness standpoint.

Heat pumps are far more efficient than resistive heating. You get far more BTUs from a KW of electricity. If depending on electric heat only, the increased cost of the heat pump will far more quickly amortized than the Cheap heat unit (frankly, it's not likely the cost of the Cheap Heat will ever be amortized over its life, especially if one has to pay for installation) as long as it is used only in mild weather (40 degrees up). Heat pumps fall off in efficiency as the outside temperature drops and are ineffective when the temperature drops far enough (the figure varies from unit to unit). I've see the low temperature cutoff for RV heat pumps reported as being 30-40 degrees on the RV forums I haunt.

To deal with that problem, residential heat pumps also have heat strips to either boost the heat output as performance falls off or replace the heat pump (or both). RV heat pumps do not have that option. The thermostats usually have the option to manually switch from heat pump to furnace.

Where I live, the temperatures infrequently drop below 40 and even more infrequently drop below freezing. A heat pump will be unable to function efficiently only about a dozen days (if that often) during the winter and even on those days, for only a few hours at night. The existing gas furnace could be used to supplement the heat pump but then one has to deal with replacing the gas. For someone moving the RV every couple of days or weeks, it's not a big problem since all on has to do is drive to the nearest gas dealer and let them deal with it. However, if sitting in one spot for several months at a time, like I plan on doing (I'll be full timing), getting propane becomes a bit of a problem (especially since I'm considering puting in a gas fired tankless water heater). If the park has delivery service available, it would probably be monthly. If one can't last for the entire month without refilling the tanks, then the tanks have to be removed from the RV, hauled down to a propane dealer, hauled back to the RV, and reinstalled. A full 30 lb. tank weighs 53 lb. I can just handle that now if my back is behaving (which, lately, it hasn't been). But what about five years from now?

One could heat an RV with wall or portable electric heaters when the temperature drops below the heat pumps' lower threshold but there are problems associated with that. Portable heaters take up space, both when in use and when in storage (and we all know how limited RV storage space is). I would have to have at least three of them to keep the TT warm: one in the bedroom, one in the bathroom, and one or two in the kitchen/living area. Where to put them would a problem. In the bedroom, I could put one on the floor where it wouldn't be a tripping hazard. I would have to install an outlet for it, though. There isn't anywhere to put one in the bathroom without it being a tripping hazard, not to mention no outlet available. In the kitchen/living room area I would have to have one put on the kitchen counter (at least, it has power) and possibly one on the floor somewhere where it would be subject to tripping over and would need a new outlet wired in. There isn't enough wall space for forced air wall heaters anywhere.

Then there would be the problem of controlling portable heaters. I would have to manually turn the darned things on and off when the heat pumps shut down due to low temperatures.

That is where Cheap Heat comes in. It heats using the existing furnace ducts. Power for it is easily obtained. The furnace is located in the same undercounter space as the electrical panel. If I'm lucky, I can replace the main double pole breaker with a quad half pole breaker that has the two center half poles bridged for 240v (that would be the 50A main) and the outer half poles bridged (that would become the 30A breaker for the Cheap Heat). Some brands carry that kind of setup but it remains to be seen if I can find one to fit the panel that will be in the TT I get. If not, then a separate panel will be needed. Control can be from the thermostat. How automatic it will be will depend on what thermostats are available and how creative I can be (some additional control ciruitry may be needed).

For me, the heat pumps will be well worth the investment because They will be a new installation instead of replacing exisiting A/Cs the extra up front expense will be amortized in two or three years. If I install the Cheap Heat, it will never pay for itself in fuel savings. It's expense would be justified in the convenience of having supplemental central electric heat that can be automatically controlled when the temperature gets too low and by not having to frequently refill propane tanks.

[Paw John]

Just a thought that if this system would get installed at the time of the build, it would cost under $ 500.00 . This is something every body could afford. Also the manufacture of the cheap heat system would be selling over 50 to 100 units a month instead of 5 to 6 units a month. Win Win all around. Love my Cheap Heat system !!!!!!!

[PapaBear1]

Originally Posted by Paw John

Just a thought that if this system would get installed at the time of the build, it would cost under $ 500.00 . This is something every body could afford. Also the manufacture of the cheap heat system would be selling over 50 to 100 units a month instead of 5 to 6 units a month. Win Win all around. Love my Cheap Heat system !!!!!!!

First time here. Interesting forum. Instructive.

I used to own a Pre-owned 1992 Kustom Koach 28.5' 5er. It already had the heat pump/ac combo installed. Worked great, the few times we wished to use it. Rarely used, since we did mostly off road and logging road recreational forestry site type camping. Wouldn't a combo heat pump/LP furnace set up be ideal for those doing a variety of camping styles?

Also curious about possible electrical "on demand" water heaters for RV. do they exist? Could domestic style "under sink" type be installed safely, somewhere near shower/sink or both?

[LadyFitz...]

Originally Posted by PapaBear1

Also curious about possible electrical "on demand" water heaters for RV. do they exist? Could domestic style "under sink" type be installed safely, somewhere near shower/sink or both?

Not electrical (darn it!). Right now, the only on demand (aka, tankless) water heaters approved for RV use are the diesel fired Aqua Hots (work great but are bulky and expensive; you will only find them in better quality diesel motor homes) and the LP fired Girard and RV 500. The Girard is less expensive and, although it works well, it requires adjusting to a different way of using hot water. The RV 500 is more expensive but it behaves like a conventional water heater(except that it never runs out of hot water). The Girard will fit in the holes previously occupied by 6 and 10 gl water heaters. The RV 500 will fit in the hole left by a 10 gl water heater. Some surgery on the RV would be necessary to get the RV 500 to fit where a 6 gl tank type water heater fit

I read recently that Atwood has partnered with Precision Temp (the maker of the RV 500) to create two models of tankless water heaters under the Atwood label. I haven't been able to find any info on them yet.

An electric tankless water heater that could give the same performance as an LP fired tankless or a tank type would probably draw too much current for the limited power sources RVs have. If you do find one that is suitable for RV use, let me know.

Sadly, the RV forums abound with misinformation on tankless water heaters so be careful of what you read.

[LadyFitz...]

Originally Posted by PapaBear1

...Wouldn't a combo heat pump/LP furnace set up be ideal for those doing a variety of camping styles?...

Yes. The heat pump could be more economical for heating in mild climates when running off shore power. The LP would be a good back up for when it got too cold for the heat pumps and for when boondocking.

Replacing existing functioning A/Cs with heat pumps may not be economically sound. Installing heat pumps in a new installation or when replacing malfunctioning A/Cs could make more economic sense.

If one has an RV with a basement heat pump, it may be possible to install resistance heat strips (if not already installed) which would be far less expensive than Cheap Heat. Currently, there are no roof top heat pumps that can have heat strips installed and only nonducted A/Cs may have them.

The idea of the Cheap Heat is to avoid using LP which may or may not save money depending on one's needs. For some (like me), installing Cheap Heat would be for convenience, not economics. It would reduce the frequency of LP tank refills.

[Paw John]

I was just on woodalls open roads forum and all they where talking about that the Cheap Heat system is too expensive and they could not see about how it will pay for it's self. I feel that I will save enough from now untill I retire in 5 - 7 years ( that's if this country settles down ) or 12 years top. Then I will hopefully be fulltiming. My next upgrade that I will be saving up my Pennies for is solar panels and batteries to boomdock. I figure that I can make upgrades on my camper and pay as I go, so it not an all at one time expense. I think I can start buying one item at a time when I can afford them and then install when I have every thing. ( this will keep the wife happy, using my allowance not her hard earned money ) Live to camp and Love to camp, Happy Trails !!!!!!!

[LadyFitz...]

How did you like pianotuna?

[Paw John]

It's not that I don't like Pianotuna but it's their narrow mind( tunnel vision ). How can you say that heating with three electric heaters and an extra fan is better than the Cheap Heat system. I know that it's expensive but not having to watch yourself how you move around your camper not to knock over a heater. I personally did the three heaters and now the Cheap Heat. I pick the Cheap Heat. My son has a clamp on amp meter and as soon as I can get my camper back on the pad and hooked up. I will check the amp draw on my electric service when the unit is running and on the start up. I will update the thread with resaults. Now it's time to get started on the completion of the removal of my old shop.

[LadyFitz...]

Originally Posted by Paw John

It's not that I don't like Pianotuna but it's their narrow mind( tunnel vision ). How can you say that heating with three electric heaters and an extra fan is better than the Cheap Heat system. I know that it's expensive but not having to watch yourself how you move around your camper not to knock over a heater. I personally did the three heaters and now the Cheap Heat. I pick the Cheap Heat. My son has a clamp on amp meter and as soon as I can get my camper back on the pad and hooked up. I will check the amp draw on my electric service when the unit is running and on the start up. I will update the thread with resaults. Now it's time to get started on the completion of the removal of my old shop.

It's not that I dislike the guy personally. I don't know him personally so it's impossible to judge if I like him or not. But, as you said, he is narrow minded. He is also persistant and, on at least some subjects, ignorant. After some of his posts were deleted on the other thread on Cheap Heat on those forums, he resorted to PMs until I told him, several times, to give it a rest.

[TDiGuy]

Hi all,
I had posted something like this called winter camping... Its in the camping section
if you want the whole details...
The scoop is I paid $250 and bought 2 lifesmart infared heaters. put the slide in.
It got to 17' last night... inside it was 68'... gas furnace was set to 65' and it never
ran. I was really surprised how well it worked...
later
jeff

[LadyFitz...]

Originally Posted by TDiGuy

Hi all,
I had posted something like this called winter camping... Its in the camping section
if you want the whole details...
The scoop is I paid $250 and bought 2 lifesmart infared heaters. put the slide in.
It got to 17' last night... inside it was 68'... gas furnace was set to 65' and it never
ran. I was really surprised how well it worked...
later
jeff

I'm confused. I did a search for the thread you mentioned here and the two post that came up made it sound like it wasn't working for you.

Can you provide links to the heaters you were using?

[TDiGuy]

Hi ladyFitz
Here is a link to the one of the heaters I have been using.
eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices
It draws 11.9amp uses 1368 watts is rated 5100btu and is similar to eden pur. I don't like that fact that it is only high power.... I got a second one from
menards and it is cheaper but has a high and low button... it uses 1280watts on high and 788 on low... draws 11.9amps per killawatt ez.. and is also rated 5100btu. I also have an electric cube by titon that draws 5.8amps and 566 watts on high...
The cube element heater is in the basement.
Each heater is on a different circut and I turn them off to use the micro...
One word of caution... they do put off an odor for the first few hours... It bother me alot so i put them in the house for the first few hours...
Last night my gas furnace did not run... the temp at sunrise was 17' outside and 68' in the bedroom...basement was 62'... I had moved the bedroom one closer to the bedroom in a straight shot instead of in the kitchen... then I ran my day/night blinds down past the trim which made them seal out the cold draft around the thermopane windows in the bedroom. It was a warm moist heat... They heat the water in the air so it is important to have about 40% humidity... my gas furance would dry out the air...
my nose is not dry and itchy too... It also is a lot less noise. the fans on the lifesmart are hardly noticed. The furnace fan would wake me up at night...
These are way better than last year when i used cheap $20 electric element heaters... The furnace would still run with them...
jeff
jeff