Go Back   iRV2 Forums > TRAVEL TRAILER, 5th WHEEL & TRUCK CAMPER FORUMS > 5th Wheel Discussion
Click Here to Login
Join iRV2 Today

Mission Statement: Supporting thoughtful exchange of knowledge, values and experience among RV enthusiasts.
Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on iRV2
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-07-2016, 02:18 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
Dutch Master's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 103
Heavy Duty Brakes vs Hydraullic-Electric System

Good day Fellow 5th Wheelers,
My good friend has purchased a new Jayco Eagle 28 foot 5th wheel. He tow vehicle is a 2015 Silverado 1500 (V8 engine). The trailer comes in at around 8500 pounds. He has added the Air Lift system (i.e. air bags), since the CAT scale came in at 4400 pounds on the rear axle. He has also upgraded the tires to BF Goodrich 8 plys.
He is contemplating upgrading the brake system also. There are two ways to go:

1. Upgrade the brake system on the truck using heavy duty parts like the Power Stop Z36 package. From what I understand, this will give you around 20% better stopping power.

2. Upgrade the trailer braking system to electric/hydraulic. I believe that according to the IRV2 blog, this will give up to 60% braking.

Upgrading the brake system on the truck is lower cost. However, I would like to get some feedback on this subject from "actual owners" of each system point out the pros and cons.

As Always - Thank You for your feedback

Best Regards
Mark S.
__________________

__________________
Dutch Master is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 RV Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

iRV2.com RV Community - Are you about to start a new improvement on your RV or need some help with some maintenance? Do you need advice on what products to buy? Or maybe you can give others some advice? No matter where you fit in you'll find that iRV2 is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with other RV owners, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create an RV blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 06-07-2016, 03:28 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
Ford Super Duty Owner
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,885
Braking on the truck is really a function of two things:
1) How well the existing pads "grab" the rotor.
2) How much heat capacity the rotor has.

Different pads change the feel of the braking and can improve feel/fade via handling hot conditions better (typically carbon metallic). However, these changes do very little to actually improve total braking capacity. Going to vented rotors provides very little, if any, additional braking capacity through better cooling. Vented / slotted rotors were actually setup to handle pad gassing, which is less of an issue these days and likely is almost never an issue on a street vehicle.

That 20% better stop, if true, is likely due to better initial "grab" of the brakes. It's not going to really help in a situation where you've got a lot of brake load (heat) over some period of time (down hill).

How well that thing will stop a big trailer, down hill, on an extended run is really a function of how large the rotors are. Larger rotors dissipate heat faster as well as have more heat capacity. Change pads all day long, but if you overheat the rotors, you're going to have big issues.

I find that MY electric trailer brakes are fairly weak. I've got 7k axles and an RV that weighs around 14k. The factory brakes do something, but don't even come close to locking up when fulling engaging the brake controller. Lighter RVs may be different - if you've got two axles and a good brake controller, if you can lock the tires on that RV, you've got enough immediate braking. Moving to disc may get you improved braking, at the cost of a slight hydraulic spool-up delay - but what I read on the big trailers is that overall braking is much improved, probably because most are like mine - not enough force to actually put down full braking capacity. The smaller trailer may or may not need it.
__________________

__________________
cb1000rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2016, 10:38 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
jacknife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 704
Put disc on the trailer and it will stop itself.I did mine and it was a day and nite difference ove electric brakes.
__________________
jacknife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 07:49 AM   #4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Illinois
Posts: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacknife View Post
Put disc on the trailer and it will stop itself.I did mine and it was a day and nite difference ove electric brakes.
My trailer weighs in around 14.5k. With the electric/hydraulic discs on the trailer it will lock up the trailer wheels if I chank up the controller. The difference is truley amazing over the electric drum!

I have no experience with a lighter trailer using disc brakes but certainly would expect a similar improvement.
__________________
DJNCJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 09:06 AM   #5
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,346
Your "GOOD FRIEND" needs to step up and buy the appropriate truck to tow his RV safely without a bunch of BandAids!!!
__________________
Cummins12V98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 09:54 AM   #6
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Bryan, Texas
Posts: 611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cummins12V98 View Post
Your "GOOD FRIEND" needs to step up and buy the appropriate truck to tow his RV safely without a bunch of BandAids!!!

Agree
__________________
charliez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 10:36 AM   #7
Senior Member
 
Dutch Master's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 103
Hello Again Fellow 5th Wheelers,
Thank you for all the feedback and suggestions. I agree that a 1500 is a "light duty" truck for this application. Moving to a HD (i.e. 2500 series) would be a better solution, but also a more expensive solution. As you know from various threads, many, many 5th wheel owners have a truck that is not suited for a particular trailer size/weight. This is always a quagmire! But the solutions I gave stated are less cost than a trade in. (less than $2K). A trade up to a HD truck would cost much more, since this is only a 2 year old truck, and HD's aren't exactly cheap!

I want to especially thank cb1000 rider into the insight and technical discussion on this subject. For those people including all HD truck owners, if they want to "upgrade" their braking system on the truck, check out Wildwood's Big Brake Kits. They are awesome, with nothing that even comes close to what they offer.

Best Regards
Mark S.
__________________
Dutch Master is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 11:13 AM   #8
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,085
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cummins12V98 View Post
Your "GOOD FRIEND" needs to step up and buy the appropriate truck to tow his RV safely without a bunch of BandAids!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliez View Post
Agree
One either goes by ratings OR makes attempts to justify and remedy with 'fixes' that do nothing but mask real issue

Too much trailer/not enough truck
__________________
Old-Biscuit is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 11:31 AM   #9
Senior Member
 
Skip426's Avatar


 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Powell River, B.C.
Posts: 14,972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old-Biscuit View Post
One either goes by ratings OR makes attempts to justify and remedy with 'fixes' that do nothing but mask real issue

Too much trailer/not enough truck

You can add air bags, bigger brakes, and tires and wheels. Then you get down to the things you cannot change , rear wheel bearings and axle shafts .
We see it all the time here in the west 1/2 ton , loaded with a cord of fire wood and a rear wheel jammed up into the box , with the axle shaft sawed/snapped, off at the bearing run.
__________________
99DSDP 3884, Freightliner, XC, CAT 3126B, 300 HP /ALLISON 3060
2000 Caravan toad, Remco & Blue Ox.
Skip426 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2016, 12:40 AM   #10
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Chilliwack, B.C.
Posts: 10
In my neck of the woods if you are checked by the DOT, they go by the vehicles ratings noted on the id plates no mater what upgrades you have made unless the id plates have been changed by a shop qualified to change the ratings.
Waist of good money, get the proper size truck.
__________________
Baja Bert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2016, 07:36 AM   #11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Illinois
Posts: 200
I just took a look at the published axle weight limits: http://www.chevrolet.com/content/dam...ure_011315.pdf

It appears that your friend is about 450 lbs over the rear axle rating of 3950. That would be a concern for me (and likely the DOT as well)

While my 2500 Ram when towing my 5er is over on it's 10,000 lbs GVW it is well under both axles (6,000 front and 6,500 rear) and tires (7280 / axle). If over on the stock axles or tires I would move to a larger truck. That would be my recommendation for your friend too if what I see on the provided link is correct.

The scenerio "Skip426" describes comes to mind...

In my case I upgraded the trailer brakes because they are better not because I needed them to stop the rig. My truck has the same axles, tires and brakes as a 3500 plus a full factory rear air suspension so its equally capable as a SRW 3500 from a safety standpoint. When hitched my truck runs at the full unloaded ride height, no squat. Elec/hydraulic disc brakes for the trailer were described as so much better that I simply had to have them regardless of tow vehicle. I'm very glad I made the conversion and am safer on the roads because of them. Your friend is pushing the limits beyond what I would be comfortable with...sorry.
__________________
DJNCJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2016, 08:03 PM   #12
Senior Member
 
Dutch Master's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 103
Boy,
There are a lot if IHMO on this subject, with bias of course. The only credence that I have read so far is the one by cb1000 rider. His input is based upon "good engineering insight and principals," rather than an "opinion."
Funny, if you look at Jayco's web site, the Eagle HT is designed, marketed, and intended for 1/2 ton type of trucks. This is what AMERICA IS BUYING! If there was not a market, then they would not spend a ton of cash to design a product line for a light duty truck. Opinions are like "butts," everyone has one! "Proof of the Pudding" is something else, base upon actual data.

Best Regards
Mark S.
__________________
Dutch Master is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2016, 08:12 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
MtnTrek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Currently; SW Cali. Sunny & warm!
Posts: 1,114
homework

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old-Biscuit View Post
One either goes by ratings OR makes attempts to justify and remedy with 'fixes' that do nothing but mask real issue

Too much trailer/not enough truck
That being said,

Your friend in addition to any modifications made needs to learn which situations to avoid completely and ways to approach serious situations such a long descents and steep grades safely. Cresting at slow speeds, engine braking with the transmission etc.. Even with the "correct tools" for the job some situations can be dangerous.

Happy motoring.
__________________
DRV Suites, ES-38RSSA
J & J & Kickr's the Vonderhund
GM Denali, 3500HD-Max, CC, 8'-DRW, 4x4
MtnTrek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2016, 12:20 PM   #14
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Illinois
Posts: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch Master View Post
Boy,
There are a lot if IHMO on this subject, with bias of course. The only credence that I have read so far is the one by cb1000 rider. His input is based upon "good engineering insight and principals," rather than an "opinion."
Funny, if you look at Jayco's web site, the Eagle HT is designed, marketed, and intended for 1/2 ton type of trucks. This is what AMERICA IS BUYING! If there was not a market, then they would not spend a ton of cash to design a product line for a light duty truck. Opinions are like "butts," everyone has one! "Proof of the Pudding" is something else, base upon actual data.

Best Regards
Mark S.
You posted the rear axle weight of 4400 lbs. The "good engineering insights and principals" you seek can be found on the drivers door jam of the truck and within the PDF link I provided you in my last post. If I read the PDF correctly this rear axle is overloaded (by a lot).

I believe the engineering team GM put together to attatch weight rating to their trucks have provided as much credence as you desire. I certainly am in no position to argue with them...

Yes there are suspension devices and higher performance brakes that can be added to improve towing performance but...they dont change the numbers.

I based my statements on the numbers you and GM provided. If the Camper manufacturer claims "1/2 ton towable" and the numbers say otherwise your friend ought to take it up with them.
__________________

__________________
DJNCJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
brake, brakes



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
P30 Chassis - Medium Duty, or light duty Lokahi117 Workhorse and Chevrolet Chassis Motorhome Forum 1 02-16-2012 08:25 PM
Backlogged Projects: Heavy Duty Charging System–Truck end RedneckExpress Vintage RV's 0 10-03-2011 12:58 PM
Heavy duty springs on HWH leveling jacks. Audrey & John Alpine Coach Owner's Forum 14 04-22-2008 11:29 AM
Heavy duty Velcro dshogman Alpine Coach Owner's Forum 6 04-17-2007 11:53 AM
Ford Truck Heavy Duty with fifth wheel body RVrs R US HDT Conversions 5 10-01-2005 09:55 AM

» Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.