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Old 04-15-2015, 06:59 AM   #71
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I looked at the door sticker on a new Delani, and NO sticker for GVWR or GAWR, only tire size and pressure and load capacity including passengers. and this was a ccsb 2500 diesel, this rating was 2345#, put in 2 passengers, hitch and you have less than 1900# left for load( pin weight)
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Old 04-15-2015, 08:02 AM   #72
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The way I think about it is 'towing capacity' is how big of a hay wagon can the truck tow. A hay wagon puts very little weight on the truck - probably 30 lbs as I can pick up the tongue on a hay wagon.

So to me, towing capacity has nothing to do with weight carrying capacity.

I used to be like most guys an say... towing capacity is xxxxx so I can tow a 5th wheel of xxxxx. Then when I read all the fine print, like others have said, you run out of weight carrying capacity before you run out of towing capacity...unless you have a really huge hay wagon full of hay.
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Old 04-15-2015, 10:29 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by tuffr2 View Post
The way I think about it is 'towing capacity' is how big of a hay wagon can the truck tow. A hay wagon puts very little weight on the truck - probably 30 lbs as I can pick up the tongue on a hay wagon.

So to me, towing capacity has nothing to do with weight carrying capacity.

I used to be like most guys an say... towing capacity is xxxxx so I can tow a 5th wheel of xxxxx. Then when I read all the fine print, like others have said, you run out of weight carrying capacity before you run out of towing capacity...unless you have a really huge hay wagon full of hay.
Good analogy. Too many folks take the easy way and only use the numbers that suit their purpose. Some really cavalier attitudes about ignoring the designers. Thankfully there is a very low incidence of accidents where people are hurt or killed.

Inevitably there will be the one accident that garners so much publicity the government will 'have to' take action. They will knee jerk and the result will be something like requiring all RV to cross the scale when open.

I think we are pretty naive if we believe that the highway enforcement are not knowledgeable if they decide to check out an RV. It may not be on their priority list but they have the authority by definition.

IMO it is best for anyone who provides advice to a person asking for any information to provide objective information. It provides no one a service when the advice is to go ahead because I have done it for years without issue.

This idea that it is 'fear mongering' to provide information about possible legal action when going beyond the specifications is ludicrous. In todays litigious society you would be foolish to take any risk if you do not have to.
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Old 04-15-2015, 05:52 PM   #74
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Tuffr2 and Gordon are right on which is why I'm not looking at 3500s.

If you follow the manufacture specifications you have to not only figure in the totally weight of the 5er but the pin weight vrs payload capacity since pin weight is payload to the TV. You also have to figure in axel weight etc... If you over an any one of them your over plain and simple.

Although a 3500 can tow 28,000 pounds you end up putting way too much "payload" weight on the truck.

In an accident I can 100% guarantee that the officers doing the investigation will figure out that your overweight. You may be OK on GCWR but if your over on payload or axel weight you're still in violation.

Bottom line is that it's not worth it. A 2500 to a 3500 to a 5500 do vary that much in price. True a 5500 will end up costing more since you'll want to put some sort of a hauler bed on it and likely air suspension but you're going to be a lot happier with the ride.

For those that want to chance it will chance it and there is nothing we can say to change their mind. However they MUST remember it's not only their lives but the lives of other around them.
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Old 04-15-2015, 06:39 PM   #75
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Any proof to back up your 100% guarantee?

I agree you should have a truck with adequately rated tires to support loaded weight.

However, I cry foul on the weight police, fear mongering tactics.
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Old 04-15-2015, 06:56 PM   #76
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NEW to 5th Wheel looking for advice on a truck

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Originally Posted by drfife View Post
Any proof to back up your 100% guarantee?

I agree you should have a truck with adequately rated tires to support loaded weight.

However, I cry foul on the weight police, fear mongering tactics.

Unbelievable, that's all I have to say. I can't even imagine what career field you're in. Like I said before, you can't teach common sense, you either have it or you don't. The only person repeatedly using the term "fear mongering" is you.

So, you suggest adequate tires but not an adequate truck. Makes perfectly good sense to me. Also, since you like 100% guarantees and lots of written proof I suggest you guarantee in writing that anyone involved in an accident and overloaded won't be sued or held liable.

As has been mentioned numerous times by several people, with a little education it's just as easy to buy a truck within the tow capacity of the trailer than not. Price difference is pretty much negligible. The OP asked for information and most people would assume they wanted a somewhat educated answer, one that would keep them within the letter of the law. I've yet to hear anyone say it's a huge issue, guaranteed you're going to get sued, be held liable, given a ticket. They are just offering the BEST advice and advice that just might keep someone from a very costly mistake.
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Old 04-15-2015, 08:00 PM   #77
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Unbelievable, you don't read and/or comprehend my point.

Towing is a common sense issue.

You are responsible for what you tow and the consequences for errors. That may include civil and legal action.

But, show me a single, verifiable citation and prosecution for towing with non-commercial vehicle over the weight rating printed on placard on the vehicle.

Nothing more to it than that.
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Old 04-15-2015, 08:45 PM   #78
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The OP asked for information and most people would assume they wanted a somewhat educated answer, one that would keep them within the letter of the law.
The problem is a education issue alright....as the majority of RV folks aren't educated on what the letter of the law says about motor vehicle size and weight laws or how how a overweight code is interpreted and enforced.

Instead they falsely start the fear mongering about how your gonna' be sued for being over a GVWR or a GCWR or a payload number. If that was true commerce would be shut down and our courts be plugged with civil lawsuits.

The best one is you gotta have common sense.
Dot doesn't issue over weight tickets based on common sense nor will a civil lawsuit ever make it to court based on common sense.

Gotta' love weight threads/lawsuit theories on RV websites. Makes for good humored jokes over on LTL hauler forums.
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Old 04-16-2015, 09:36 AM   #79
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The problem is a education issue alright....as the majority of RV folks aren't educated on what the letter of the law says about motor vehicle size and weight laws or how how a overweight code is interpreted and enforced.

Instead they falsely start the fear mongering about how your gonna' be sued for being over a GVWR or a GCWR or a payload number. If that was true commerce would be shut down and our courts be plugged with civil lawsuits.

The best one is you gotta have common sense.
Dot doesn't issue over weight tickets based on common sense nor will a civil lawsuit ever make it to court based on common sense.

Gotta' love weight threads/lawsuit theories on RV websites. Makes for good humored jokes over on LTL hauler forums.
At issue here is not the "you are gonna be sued" but the very real possibility that it may happen. DOT issues tickets on their primary mandate which is the OTR traffic. By their overall mandate of traffic safety and weight they have the authority to issue tickets to any vehicle that is overweight or unsafe. Whatever triggers their attention is the only guess work.

I do not understand how commerce would be shut down as commercial vehicles report to any open scale whether it be physical or by transponder.

There is no such thing as common sense when it comes to numbers. You are either under or over. DOT issues tickets based on hard numbers. OTR has played with the numbers for years and understand how to make them work. Look at the number of axle configurations that are available to the industry to comply.

The entire thing of proof being asked for is ridiculous. How many would ask for proof that speeding tickets are issued and there are court cases? It happens often enough so everyone is cognizant that it occurs. Because RV overweight is not as prevalent does not mean it does not happen. If you give an example the response is give me proof.

At issue is the OP asked for some advice about the truck he needed to tow a trailer. Good advice was given except for the "fear mongering" issue introduced because the poster had never heard of a ticket being issued.
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Old 04-16-2015, 03:37 PM   #80
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Come on, who are you kidding?

I am no rookie. Been towing RV's since '99. Well in excess of 100K miles. Through all the lower 48 states and 5 Canadian provinces.

I have never been weighed by DOT or an LEO. I have never witnessed or even heard from anyone that was.

I still cry foul on your claim, but obviously won't share any additional information.
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Old 04-16-2015, 06:35 PM   #81
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No issue here. That you choose to believe me or not is your issue. I really do not care whether you believe me or not. I saw what I saw and gave the facts. I have no reason to lie or stretch the truth. Telling you where it was will not help you as I previously told you. These are summary convictions and you only go to court to try to prove your innocence.

We discussed this topic on another thread. I believe I gave you the location that time. Your quote "I have never witnessed or even heard from anyone that was." means to me you ignore any facts you do not want to hear.
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Old 04-16-2015, 06:54 PM   #82
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You may have me confused with someone else.
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Old 04-16-2015, 09:16 PM   #83
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I do not understand how commerce would be shut down as commercial vehicles report to any open scale whether it be physical or by transponder.
Because commercial vehicles, as private vehicles, do not use GVWR or GCWR or a payload to determine a overweight condition as I said in my above reply.
Nor do we (commercial or non commercial) face civil lawsuits for being over those numbers I mentioned. Hence my statement commerce would be shut down if any of those numbers could be used in a court of law or if they were a enforceable number.
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Old 04-16-2015, 09:49 PM   #84
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Because commercial vehicles, as private vehicles, do not use GVWR or GCWR or a payload to determine a overweight condition as I said in my above reply.
Nor do we (commercial or non commercial) face civil lawsuits for being over those numbers I mentioned. Hence my statement commerce would be shut down if any of those numbers could be used in a court of law or if they were a enforceable number.
I get your point.

In the government I worked for the owner could license the weight up to the maximum of the unit he was licensing. They had to bring in the manufacturers unit specifications at the time of buying the license and specify the tires that were installed. In short they could not licence a 17,000 lb axle for 20,000 lbs.

I managed construction projects for DOT. On projects that had material hauls I would contact the Highway Enforcement Division (they were part of the DOT but later were moved to Solicitor General because they were enforcement) and they would do an inspection of every truck that would take part on the haul. They would check tire capacities, axle capacities, and compare it to the licensed weight as well as doing a condition inspection of the truck. That would determine the gross weight we would let the truck leave the scale with.

We often sent trucks home to put the licensed size tires back on the front. They had a scam going where they would put larger tires on for the licensing and then change back to regular tires after. That way one set of large tires could license a fleet.

We trained the scale people to watch for changes to the units that were hauling. Tire size was one of the most obvious changes. It was easy to notice when one day there were narrow tires when the previous day they had large tires.

I chummed with a fellow who owned a bunch of heavy trucks. He had spec'd out his trucks with the heaviest axles and diffs he could buy, much over the max allowable on the road. Summer he would haul gravel (scaled). In the winter he would go hauling in the oil patch which was mostly off road on private roads.

IMO most agencies will license the truck in some regard to the manufacturers specs. But I only know of the agency I worked for.
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