tires

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by FastEagle

Here is the problem I see with such actions. The dealer would be violating a dealer/manufacturer trust.

The owner would have tire placard and certification label with misinformation if the tire size/design changed. Will the dealer install an auxiliary tire placard (authorized by NHTSA and recommended in tire industry standards)?

How much of the trailer's warranty will be voided with such an unauthorized change in its original design/equipment?

The vehicle manufacturer is required to keep a record - by serial number - of the OE tires for 5 years. Will the dealer register the tires they put on the vehicle and hope the manufacture overlooks the replacements?

Isn't an unauthorized tire replacement also a misapplication? No tire manufacturer will warranty a misapplication of their tires.

It's almost as if you are trying to prevent people from having better performing tires on their vehicle.
The tire registration is a red herring as I never received the registration cards that the owner is to complete and mail in. I read numerous cases where there is a recall but people never receive notice because their tires were never registered.

Try this test. Simply ask the dealer "How do you handle tire registration" Bet 80+ % of the time you will get nothing but a blank stare.

Has anyone ever been told by a dealer to not change tires because it would mess up the RV as designed by the RV company?
Maybe someone can try calling their dealer and simply ask why they didn't receive notice of the tires being registered. Let us know what the first response from the dealer is.
RE-misapplication. Can you identify a case where a definite defect in a tire was not adjusted because the tire was not OE on the vehicle? As long as the new tire has equal or better load capacity I doubt that a real tire company will try and use that excuse.
Now before people jump in I am talking about an adjustable condition not a "blowout" that is 90% or more of the time the result of under-inflation.

If someone has had a claim turned down how many received the words "mis-application"?

Neither of the last 2 RVs I bought did the dealer tell me anything about tires. I have not heard of any that even know enough to point out the placard, the info on it and the importance of not exceeding the weight and or checking air every day.

[FastEagle]

From a binding regulation:

Each manufacturer of motor vehicles shall retain all records described in §576.6 for a period of five years. Records to be retained by manufacturers under this part include all documentary materials, films, tapes, and other information-storing media that contain information concerning malfunctions that may be related to motor vehicle safety. Such records include, but are not limited to, communications from vehicle users and memoranda of user complaints; reports and other documents, including material generated or communicated by computer, fax or other electronic means, that are related to work performed under, or claims made under, warranties; service reports or similar documents, including electronic transmissions, from dealers or manufacturer's field personnel; and any lists, compilations, analyses, or discussions of such malfunctions contained in internal or external correspondence of the manufacturer, including communications transmitted electronically.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2015-title49-vol7/xml/CFR-2015-title49-vol7-sec576-5.xml
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2015-title49-vol7/xml/CFR-2015-title49-vol7-sec576-7.xml

A document listing voluntary Information.

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Documents/2014_Tire_Safety_SYM_Panel_3a_Chern.pdf

Tireman9, I cannot dissuade readers of my posts to follow regulations, tire industry standards or NHTSA safety standards. I can only provide a level of information that may help in a decision making process.

If a tire manufacturer calls a particular tire fitment a misapplication, who am I to disagree with that decision? The difference between that same tire not being a misapplication lies in the hands of the vehicle manufacturer. Their choice for Original Equipment Tire selections is golden. Most readers refuse to understand that.

[dayle1]

Originally Posted by FastEagle

If a tire manufacturer calls a particular tire fitment a misapplication, who am I to disagree with that decision? Their choice for Original Equipment Tire selections is golden.

You call the selection "golden" which means more than just understanding the regulations, etc, you are happy with the outcome. Yet at the same time you recognize how marginal that frequently is.

Originally Posted by FastEagle

5200# GAWR axles seldom get OE tires with more than 2830# of load capacity @ 80 PSI.

And by blindly endorsing the 'process' you are missing the reality. While none of us can know the number of towing miles on ST tires vs. LT tires, tire failures are almost exclusively with ST tires.

[Tireman9]

FastEagle,
Yes it is nice to say things like "Their choice for Original Equipment Tire selections is golden." if only it were that simple. From looking at the science and facts it is clear that the RV industry has little or no interest is standing behind their "Golden" selection for tires. In many cases the RV company is only willing to stand behind their decision as long as it takes the new owner to pull out of the dealer driveway.

It is known and documented that some tires have been applied to RV where the only "approved" replacement is a specific size, brand and design as the load capacity information molded on the tire is not sufficient to support the GAWR but the importer sent a letter to NHTSA with the claim that their tire was OK for that application. So how is an owner to know that buying that RV means he can't even change tire brand as the brand information isn't on the placard.

Wondering about "misapplication". Have you seen documents from each tire company identifying that the only "approved" application is the OE Brand?

Would you consider applying a P type tire made by Uniroyal to an RV trailer a mis-application? After all logic follows that if applying a Uuiroyal LT tire to a trailer is a misapplication then the use of a P would also be so.

Tire companies have little or no say in what tires are selected for application to RVs. I am not aware of any tire company issuing a letter that identifies what type of vehicle their tires are "approved" for.

For many years I was intimately involved in the "approval" process for OE application of tires on cars and light trucks. I also know that the specific tire that was "approved" is seldom available 5 to 8 years later. So by rour interpritation almost every tire applied to any vehicle after the original failed or wore out could be called a "misapplication".

Following your strict interpritation of misapplication it would be wrong for someone to apply an ST type tire as a replacement for a P type tire.

Also have to wonder what you would do if someone needed to replace a like an E78-14. Seen any 8.85-15 ST offered for sale lately?

[FastEagle]

Tireman9;

“Yes it is nice to say things like "Their choice for Original Equipment Tire selections is golden." if only it were that simple. From looking at the science and facts it is clear that the RV industry has little or no interest is standing behind their "Golden" selection for tires. In many cases the RV company is only willing to stand behind their decision as long as it takes the new owner to pull out of the dealer driveway.”

I have chosen to comment on your post #32 one subject at a time.

The word “golden” may have been a bad selection. My meaning is based on fact. Only the vehicle manufacturer has the approval for tire selections on the vehicles they build. Once they make the fitment, set the recommended inflation pressures and certify it as the appropriate fitment for that vehicle it becomes the standard for all subsequent replacements. The part of it that becomes the standard is its load capacity.

Maybe when the fitment of tires to RV trailer axles was determined and decided upon to be valid, someone like Carlisle should have stepped forward and pointed out that their trailer tires would de-grade at a rate or 10% per year. But obviously that did not happen and the trailer manufacturer's are only required to play by the minimum standards presented to them.

[mel s]

Originally Posted by outbackmac

just a question, what are the difference between a duravis r250 and marathon goodyear tire? duravis is a 16inch tire and i believe the goodyear are 15,s

outbackmac
Methinks the main, (and perhaps the most important), difference is that one inch.

[FastEagle]

Tireman9;


Wondering about "misapplication". Have you seen documents from each tire company identifying that the only "approved" application is the OE Brand?

Would you consider applying a P type tire made by Uniroyal to an RV trailer a mis-application? After all logic follows that if applying a Uuiroyal LT tire to a trailer is a misapplication then the use of a P would also be so.

I have chosen to comment on your post #32 one subject at a time.

Again, vehicle manufacturers are the only ones authorized to select OE tires. Tire industry standards - not necessarily binding - fully support a vehicle manufacturer’s right to chose with their lists of approved replacements for the automotive industry and by following the vehicle manufacturer’s approval for replacements on RV trailers.

Brands do not play a roll in the vehicle manufacturer’s selection. Nether does design. All tires DOT certified for highway service can be used on RV trailer axles.

Airstream & Danali have used passenger tires for original equipment fitments on many of their RV trailers. In fact, there are late model Danali trailers with 20” Passenger tires as OE.

On edit:

Another regular poster in this forum has repeatedly pointed out to us that how a question is presented to a tire manufacturer determines the answer. Readers of questions asked of them are not mind readers so their answers will be about the specifics in the question. This is a two dimensional medium. This is a hypothetical scenario; Asked of Michelin. Are your XPS Rib tires suitable for use on RV trailer axles? Michelin answer. Sure they are, all of our LT tires can be used in such applications: Put another way. I’m replacing original equipment tires (ST) on my RV trailer. Can I use Michelin LT tires for that replacement. Michelin answer; Michelin does not approve the use of any of their LT tires as replacements for OE ST tires. Is that not considered a statement of misapplication? Read their current Michelin warranty. Here is an - out of context - excerpt…..Use of MICHELIN tires that is inconsistent with the safety and/or maintenance information provided in your owner’s manual. That’s on page #3 in the reference.

http://media.michelinman.com/content/dam/master/Michelin/pdf/Owners_Manual_Post_Promise_Plan.pdf

[NC Hauler]

FE, hows it going buddy!...still touting the low quality tires I see. I'd take a Michelin XPX RIB any day on a 5200 or 6K axle over some of the higher weight rated duds a lot of RV manufacturers buy and put on our RV's.

Tireman, I asked Jayco why they put Westlake tires on a $115,000 TH...I never got an answer. It's common sense that most know the answer to ..A lot of these manufacturers cut corners to make a buck and sadly, one of those items they cut corners on is the tires they put on our TT's, 5er's and TH's...It's there for the research. They buy these tires in bulk to get a better deal and use them on our RV's...These tires normally have high weight ratings, but extremely low quality process standards in their Chinese plants...they can get away with it...Sailun is an exception to the rule, They're an ISO, TS16969 certified manufacturer..appears they want to produce a quality product and compete in the world market..Thus far they have a very good reputation..unlike most Chinese tire manufacturers.

FE, do you ever tell anyone how many tires you went thru at one time trying to make an ST tire work on your own rig?. No way can I believe you care about others safety with some of the tire recommendations you make and advocate for others to use on their RV's with reckless abandon.


Funny, years ago I posted a letter I received from Michelin about using their XPS Ribs on a Coachman 5er with 6K axles and received different information than you did..I posted that letter on RV.Net. I was corresponding with one of their design Engineers through my company's tire division, Continental/General tires ..Guess they didn't know what they were talking about.

[oldbeek]

A friend just put $50k into a new dodge and bought his brothers used 15k gvw trailer. I told him do not buy anything until we talk. Next day he buys 5 china bombs for $565 installed. DUH why are they so cheap. Told him to take them back and even pay to take them off. I have great service out of BF Goodrich TA 235/75r16. On my 12k gvw trailer. Never a tire problem in 60,000miles with the TA but i am probably lots lighter than most of you. When i ran a fleet in 1990 my Michelin rep told me XPS didn't like sitting around. Great on emergency vehicles that wear them out in 4 years But long time since 1990.

[FastEagle]

Originally Posted by NC Hauler

Tireman, I asked Jayco why they put Westlake tires on a $115,000 TH...I never got an answer.

Funny you should mention Westlake tires. Here are a couple pictures of a new Westlake tire I found on a heavy Forest River trailer. Notice the speed letter, 75 MPH.

http://www.irv2.com/photopost/showfull.php?photo=29710
http://www.irv2.com/photopost/showfull.php?photo=29711
http://www.irv2.com/photopost/showfull.php?photo=29709

[mel s]

Originally Posted by FastEagle

Funny you should mention Westlake tires. Here are a couple pictures of a new Westlake tire I found on a heavy Forest River trailer. Notice the speed letter, 75 MPH.

FastEagle
Do you ever really need to tow a trailer faster than 75 MPH?

[FastEagle]

Originally Posted by mel s

FastEagle
Do you ever really need to tow a trailer faster than 75 MPH?

There are two ways to consider speed ratings. One is the speed itself. All tire manufacturers warn about not exceeding the posted speed limits with their tires.

Probably of most importance for RV trailer owners is the load carried by the tire. What the tire manufacturer's speed rating is telling us in that regard is the tire will carry its maximum load capacity displayed on its sidewall at its speed rating. When fully loaded or close to it, the tire will start degrading and do so more rapidly when consistently used at speeds at or beyond its capabilities.

[Tireman9]

I suppose there are a couple of ways to look at what to do when confronted with a decision on replacing failed tires or even accepting the OE size on a new RV.

One option would be to consider what if anything was done by the RV mfg. Since they were the ones responsible for making the initial selection of tires it would seem reasonable that they or the tire mfg if they have dealer network, should be responsible for handling a warranty complaint. Now if they turned down the warranty complaint on the OE tire might that be an indication of the likelihood of them standing behind any replacement tire? Even if the replacement was identical to the OE tire? IMO if the RV company and their selected tire company will not stand behind their selection then why should I be concerned about a theoretical "misapplication" question. In the case of new RV maybe the question to ask the dealer is "What is the length of the tire warranty and what does it cover?" Their answer should be a strong indication of their confidence that the tires they are providing are a quality product. They may have a 2,000 mile 12 month warranty on the RV but some components such as Refrigerator or generator may have a longer warranty and cover any failure of that component so why not a good warranty on tires?

Second option is to select tires with better load capacity and probably better durability based on being a name brand or having a speed rating and better availability than the OE tire and figure that since the RV company probably isn't going to stand behind their original tire selection or has a tire warranty that is going to expire faster than the sell-by date on a jug of milk. When confronted with a meaningless tire warranty why would you worry about "misapplication". If you have the weight slips and Load/Infl table and run a TPMS and with an increased load capacity for the tire and still not exceeding the GAWR, you have, in my mind, demonstrated more due diligence in selecting a tire than the RV company did in the first place.

FMVSS regulations outline the MINIMUM standards but do not prevent any RV company from selecting tires with more than a 10# margin over the GAWR.

[FastEagle]

This is an excerpt from a Forest River generic 5th wheel owner’s manual (2016).

OTHER WARRANTIES: As indicated in the paragraph above, entitled 'Exclusions From This Warranty', certain items that are not covered by this Warranty may be warranted separately by their manufacturers or suppliers. In order to validate those warranties, you may also be required to complete and return to the appropriate manufacturer the warranty forms included with the information package. These other warranties may cover, but are not limited to, such items as chassis, axles, tires, tubes, batteries, optional generators, and appliances, which are not covered by this Limited Warranty. For service or parts required for these products, it may be necessary to write or call the product manufacturer to obtain the nearest authorized service center location. In requesting parts for separately warranted products from the manufacturer of the product or its authorized service center, it may also be necessary to first obtain a warranty work authorization number before the work is done. It may also be necessary to provide the Product Name, Model and Serial Number along with the description of the problem and part needed, plus shipping instructions. See these warranties with respect to their terms and conditions.

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When a dealer casually mentions something about reading your trailer's owner's manual it may of sounded like a ho-hum statement. Well folks, it's serious business. There are forms to be filed with each warranty. Some have very short (10 days) lead time to file.

Almost everything in your owner's manual about safety comes from mandatory phrases that comply with NHTSA safety regulations. And must be there.

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Here is a warranty package from a popular OEM tire supplier.

http://towmaxtires.com/content/towma...antyUpdate.pdf