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Old 06-27-2005, 08:53 PM   #15
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I may cancel my order tomorrow on the LE3505.

I called WW two times today after listening to your inputs and they still can not tell me how a 5er that is rated at 15,000 lbs and comes in with options at 10,764 pounds dry, my Jeep at 3900lbs, water of 1200lbs,fuel 120 lbs has me at 15,984 lbs before any gear or food will work.

I think they may not be ready to market this size 5er for hauling a Jeep. If it was ordered stock w/o any extras then it may work ok.

I am not really concerned with the truck.
It has the towing and hauling capacity as it is the same as the F350 SRW and has more towing capacity than the DRW by 300 lbs.

Now if the pin weight would work out it is still at its limit with a Jeep inside.

The other issue is I called them twice for specs and they promised a return call but never did. Not real reassuring as I have yet to even buy it yet.

Would really like to know if anyone else has the same setup.
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Old 06-28-2005, 04:42 AM   #16
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cboh1:
I am not really concerned with the truck.
It has the towing and hauling capacity as it is the same as the F350 SRW and has more towing capacity than the DRW by 300 lbs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I am respectfully going to try to explain this once again. If you take that F250 and hitch a 5th wheel trailer to it that utilizes every pound of this "towing capacity", I can almost guarantee that it will be thousands of pounds over the 3/4 ton truck's GVWR. In the real world, the 1 ton dually's much higher GVWR will enable it to tow a larger 5th wheel (or gooseneck) trailer without exceeding GCWR or GVWR than the lighter 3/4 ton or SRW 1 ton truck.

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Old 06-28-2005, 07:21 AM   #17
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cboh1
Have you itemized the weight of your (potential) trailer WITHOUT the gel sides (1200 pounds?) and other options? I've changed my trailer orders before during mid construction, depending on level of build completion.
Options are popular, but Jeeps are heavy, and those formulas that Rusty spelled out are a great tool.
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Old 06-28-2005, 09:32 AM   #18
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RustyJC

I understand what you are saying. I know that a one ton dually will carry more weight just like an F550 will carry more than a one ton Dually.

I was going by WW saying that the pin weight would not be more than 1700 lbs even with the Jeep inside.

Thanks for the info it really does help.
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Old 06-28-2005, 10:27 AM   #19
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cboh1

I can't speak for the LE 3505 but but it should be only a couple of feet shorter than my SLC3705 and with it optioned out it should be just as heavy if not more considering the slide out and the added roof height they now have. Mine weighed around 9800 empty and weighs 12360 on the trailer axles loaded with the Jeep inside and a half tank of water. If you position the jeep all the way forward as you should for proper loading it will put some of the jeep weight on the pin. My pin weight is 3200lbs. Thats with the gas tank full on the trailer, half tank of water, and Jeep and everything else loaded. Since the new trailers are coming in so much heavier I would expect your pin weight to be close to this number if not more loaded. This is a guess though based on some of the numbers I've seen quoted by people with new trailers. FYI and good luck.
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Old 06-28-2005, 11:06 AM   #20
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Using Tom's numbers:

Loaded trailer axle weights = 12,360 lbs

Loaded trailer pin weight = 3,200 lbs

Loaded trailer GVW = 15,560 lbs

Estimated pin weight @ 20% of GVW = 3,112 lbs

Very close to Tom's reported actual pin weight of 3,200 lbs.

The 1,700 lb pin weight WW is projecting certainly sounds low to me......

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Old 06-28-2005, 04:42 PM   #21
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If WW and the dealer are so sure of the 1700# pin weight have them write it in to the contract that should the pin weight exceed the 1700# when loaded with the jeep, they will either fully refund your money for the trailer (including all fees and taxes, ie. not one cent out of your pocket) or they will pay the difference in cost for you to up grade your truck from an F250 to an F350 suitable to carry the real pin weight.

Plain and simple, "Put your money where your mouth is."

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Old 06-28-2005, 05:06 PM   #22
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Typical pin weight on a 5th wheel is 18%-20% or the trailers GVW. I would go with the 20%
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Old 06-28-2005, 05:32 PM   #23
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cboh1:

I'm gonna have to go with Ken, Mike, and Tom on this one, and not to stray too much off course, there's a WHOLE bunch of teeth gnashing here and on some other forums about WW's CC capacities- talk to Wes (high desert) about this- he's actually the one who started it- God Bless him! ( See Wes' Dilemna There's alot of hootin' and hollerin' going on!

Mark, owner of WW has publicly admitted that he and some of his crew have fallen asleep at the wheel with respect to the CCC's of the trailer, and have promised a resolution to Wes on his FSC2800 soon. I would expect MORE people to get on this bandwagon soon with other models...

But I can tell ya that there's a whole bunch of things that come into play with WW's that they just can't admit or claim right now. First and foremost, they still only supply 15" load D tires, which at 2540 lbs each, only give the 6,000 lb axles 15,240 pounds of capacity. Go up to 16" Load E's and you gain the entire 6,000 lb caps of the axles. But one thing they don't do, and for good reason, is re-sticker the TH for an 18,000 GVWR, because if they did, the owner would have to have a Comm license to pull it here in California!

Now as far as the truck goes, we specifically went out and bought a F350 DRW because of what Ken, Tom, and Mike were saying- you have to watch the GVWR of the truck- the GCWR is the last number you really should worry about, but still worry about. The F250 will not pull any trailer with a Jeep in it- period- believe me because since Feb I've poured over many a site, looked at so many numbers I can't see straight. I gave up my 2000 Banks'd F250 over this whole deal. I've even been harping on my GiantRV salesguy for pulling his Jeep'd LE3905 with only a 2005 F250, because it just doesn't make sense, and now he's looked at his numbers and is looking for a F350 DRW just so he can feel safer.

In my eyes, it's one thing to go over the GVWR of the trailer when you've outfitted it correctly- it's totally a new game when you do it to the truck. And there's really nothing short of putting a F350 or F450 rear end in your F250 that will do the trick, TV-wise. Airbags don't give you any additional GVWR, and not even a helper spring. And even if they did, you'd technically need to get the truck re-stickered and I've never heard of anyone being able to get a Top-3 mfr to do that!

I really hate to give you the bad news, but 'them's the facts'...and there's even more to it than that, but that's for another day!

Sorry buddy!

Sean
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Old 06-28-2005, 05:42 PM   #24
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...I called a local shop that repairs all types of RV's and the main mechanic said that he had a WW LE 3305 and the pin weight was at 1700 lbs loaded. ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If WW and the dealer are so sure of the 1700# pin weight have them write it in to the contract that should the pin weight exceed the 1700# when loaded with the jeep, they will either fully refund your money for the trailer (including all fees and taxes, ie. not one cent out of your pocket) or they will pay the difference in cost for you to up grade your truck from an F250 to an F350 suitable to carry the real pin weight.
Plain and simple, "Put your money where your mouth is."
Ken </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well,.... actually, there is a diference between 'some mechanic at a place that fixes all types of RV's' and 'the manufacturer WW'. One will not guarantee the other's silly gut feeling, nor should they have to! And i would bet that WW IS very aware of their pin weights.
Actually what is takes is informed and rational analysis by the purchaser. Use the formulas that Rusty has supplied. Take into account the varying particulars of your own truck. That really is important!!.

And as we have all been finding out as of late, Options Weigh. And that is what is so great about this site and some of the informed people here, we are all being provided the tools to do our research,
and that these are tools perhaps the truck-dealer, the RV dealer, and 'some mechanic at some place that I go to sometimes ' aren't aware of.

I value all promises, but unfortunatly or not, The Buck Stops Here.
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Old 06-28-2005, 08:16 PM   #25
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Thank You all for your input in this matter.

I spoke with Ford Motor Company this morning and we went over every number and fact.

We told him what we would be towing and they took this paper out of a binder and said here are the tow ratings for the truck that will work for you, the F250.

The following is an excerpt from a paper from Ford Motor Company that lists ratings for the F250/F350 SRW and DRW. The salesman used this paper in selling us this truck. The problem is that the numbers are for a single cab, 4x4 truck with a gas V8 engine. The fact is we were sold a 2005 crew cab 4x4 PSD w/camper package ECT.

What makes this even worse is the first salesman that helped us got ripped into for asking what the ratings are for the truck we had been shown. The manager of internet sales took the book from the salesman and said how many times do I have to show this to you? It states towing capacities are 12,500 towing and 16,500 for a fifth wheel, got it? He said sorry and we assumed it to be fact as he showed us the paper and said see, these are the numbers from Ford.


They actually faxed it to me yesterday. Their heading and fax number is on the paper too!

They never consulted the 2005 Ford towing guide or informed me that there was one. The first I learned of it was from you folks here.

Capability Specifics:

Maximum trailer towing Fifth wheel 4x4 16,500 lbs, SRW 16,200lbs. DRW

Maximum Payload/Maximum GCWR 4X4 5600 lbs. /23,500 lbs


Now for the numbers right from Fords engineering department:

He said my truck should weigh, without any people, fifth wheel hitch ECT, around 8000 lbs. So take that from the 23,000 lbs it leaves 15,000 lbs. I asked about the F350 SRW and he said there is 500 lbs difference in GCWR but because of the larger tires it closer to 350 lbs difference, but they both are rated at the same Towing capacity. F250/F350 SRW.

I questioned him about the F350 DRW and he said it could hold more pin weight but actually has a towing capacity of only 200 lbs more than My F250 or a F350. What he said what was needed to pull this trailer safely and in line with Fords guidelines I would need a F450 or F550. That is with the Crew cab and 4x4 and PSD.


My Maximum trailer towing Fifth Wheel is 15,400 lbs and the maximum GCWR is 23,000 lbs.

Now onto WW.

I called and spoke with a Joe from WW and here are the real numbers of the 2006 LE3505 equipped the way I ordered it. Generator, Dual beds, Fiberglass, add a room, outside BBQ and extra battery, 11,824 lbs. dry weight. With water and fuel we hit 13,142 lbs. Add my Jeep @ 3900 lbs. total weight, (before for food, camping gear, clothes other things) is 17,042 lbs or 2,042 lbs. over weight.

Here is where it gets interesting. I was told for $1800.00 they will install 2x4 blocks and 6-16" E rated tires that will give me 18,000 lbs. GCWR. That would be great but the king pin on the trailer is rated at only 17,000 lbs max!

What we are looking at is around 18,000 lbs with gear, 1000 lb over the rated king pin rating. I was also told that I would need to add a class A certification to my California driver's license. Also I was told the GCWR sticker would still show 15,000 lbs. ???????????

What he said I could do was get rid of the fiberglass at 850 lbs, the double bed at 500 lbs and the BBQ and screen rooms.

That would take me down to 11,792 lbs add the Jeep back in and I am at 15,692 or 692 lbs over the GCWR rating before any food or gear. They said I could deduct the pin weight of 1650 lbs from that total on the truck. I said that does not make sense as the weight does just not vanish!

So what I am being asked is to either pay another $1800.00 to make the trailer sort of work or strip it down like a car trailer with a tent on it.

Well I think I need to set this one out. WW admitted they really have not sold many of the trailers for Jeeps and the one in the Ad is to show how strong the roof is and not really to show it can carry a Jeep.

So now I am out the cost of the Air bags I installed and the new Fifth Wheel 20,000 lb Draw-Tite never used or the studs even tightened. $1564.00

Thanks to all of you here for pointing out what these folks should already know. WW and the Ford dealer. I have asked the Ford dealer to pay for the 5th wheel hitch, air bags, labor and new bed liner, the new one it had to be cut for the fifth wheel. Or should I ask them to take the truck back they sold us, after asking them what we needed for our application and either on purpose or by error on their part they sold us the wrong truck.

I really feel sorry for the selling WW dealer as they had been told the same thing as us at the beginning, ordering. They gave us both unrealistic numbers.

I feel like I was over analyzing this but when it comes to my family's safety and those of the others on the road I would rather do without.

Regardless of WW any advice on what I should do with the Ford dealer? I now have a truck that will not work as it was misrepresented to us from day one. If I knew we would need at least a F350 DRW for the pin weight or a F550 then that's the way we would have gone. We told them we would be getting a Toy Hauler, the size and that we would have a Jeep inside.

I think they sold us this one because they had nothing else on the lot and by twisting the facts by showing us a bogus spec sheet convinced us that the truck they had would be more than enough.

I called the dealer and now they have passed me off to another manager who has avoided my calls. Is this a case of fraud?

I want to withhold the name of the Ford Dealership for now as I hope they do the right thing. If they don't I will provide the name of all involved.

I paid our down with a CC can we contest that amount?


Sorry if I may have jumped around but I am not a happy camper right now.


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Old 06-28-2005, 09:56 PM   #26
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Wow...cboh1:

Obviously it's been bothering you...and I give you MUCH credit for delving into the issues. MY thought is to get the Ford people to let you trade in your F250 for a TowBoss F350...

There is this grey area that you've got to be concerned about, but think about this: what I said earlier about having to watch your weight? Wel...if you put a Jeep into it (mine weighs like 3682 lbs), then you can still do the deal, but with a clear understanding you won't fill with full water and/or fuel and watch what you load. I wish I had the numbers, but I'm just not yet at that point. Look for my post in the TH section of when I do weight the unit and dole out the numbers, but I've looked at the numbers from a paper standpoint, and all I can tell ya is with a F350, you'll be alot better off than you are now...

I always counted on the 10% buffer that was fairly known with my 2000 F250 (the GCWR was 20k, and with the 10% I counted on 22k), and used that in determining my absolute GCWR in pulling my 95 WW SLC3705...pulled that thing all over the place, including the Escalantes area in Utah (which is some of the greatest 'hills' around...alot of 8%'ers up to 12%'ers) ...and BTW...the truck had no problems with doing so. In getting into the 'big leagues' here, though, I've had to worry more about it, and I will be very careful as to what I load the trailer with.

No doubt...you need a bigger truck...please let us know anything further, OK?

Sean
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Old 06-28-2005, 10:09 PM   #27
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Thanks WWfan,

I am just sick over this. I have until Friday to get this resolved as WW needs to know what to do as does the WW dealer.

I know that the Ford dealer will drag their feet but it is not a lemon issue but rather something more serious and that is out right fraud.

Like I posted above I never knew that there was a towing guide and as Ford Motor Company told me it changes every year.

I was also asked by the Ford Tech what the camper package paper that the dealer supplied states as an axle balance weight. I told him I have no idea what he was referring to as there are no other papers in the truck or owners manual.

I am really hot! The WW thing is one part but even if I did away with a few items the truck I was sold 4 weeks ago is the wrong truck.

If it was my mistake that's one thing but when a dealer gives you a paper from a thick reference book and says here is the spec to prove this is the truck you need is just plain wrong.

Thanks....
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Old 06-29-2005, 04:57 AM   #28
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cboh1,

I am so sorry that you are having this problem, but you are not the first. The problem is neither Ford or the RV sales people understand, or even bother to read the information on towing. The information is right there in published literature for everyone to use. I hate to say it but it all comes down to the old "Buyer beware".

Have you made a personal appearance at your Ford dealer and spoken with the manager/owner and made a demand that they take the truck back in a fair trade for a truck suited to the task since you were totally mislead by them. Worth a try.

I know that the trucks can pull more than the Ford ratings without a problem. We have had our 20,000# rated truck over 22,000# and it did fine. But we were under on GVWR for the truck.

It all goes back to the maufacturers need to make sure qualified people sell their product, which will never happen, so it is up to the buyer to educate themselves.

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