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Old 08-19-2014, 01:12 AM   #15
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......For buying a new pickup today, a big factor for me is that GM (Government Motors, now owned by the Feds and the labor unions) and Dodge (now owned by FIAT) had lousy top management that resulted in bankruptcy for both companies. The stockholders and bond holders were screwed out of their investments. Ford stockholders still own Ford, and Ford didn't reneg on paying off their bond holders......
Howdy from an ol' West Texas hand! I graduated from PHS in '69 so you preceed me a few years but the WT values and ethics never change.

I took the liberty of condensing your post and adding emphasis specifically to address one of your points. I held a substantial amount of GM stock & bonds and while it took a few years I actually made a few bucks. The old stocks were re-issued and the bonds I held after the "bailout" were called early. I sold enough stock to recoup the initial outlay plus a modest profit and retained the rest. Others may not have been as lucky and I'm sure some suffered losses. It is interesting that you prefer a Japanese car company over the Big 3.

To the OP, I own an '02 Chevy 3500 DRW 4x4, CC, Duramax/Allison with 275,000 miles. No issues ever except for the warranty recall on injectors. It's been such a great truck I bought an '07 GMC 2500 4x4, ext cab with the D'max/Allison combo. Just over 80,000 miles on it with nothing but routine maintenance. Pick which truck suits your needs the best. Regards,
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Old 08-19-2014, 07:26 AM   #16
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James and Cummins,
Would somebody please define medium duty?
LD? MD? HD?
I am lost here....I was under the impression that all mfgs have light duty trucks--Ford: 150/250/350/450. GM: 1500/2500/3500. Dodge: 1500/2500/3500/4500. Once past that, where are you?
Joe

Joe,
Medium Duty truck to me are intercity delivery vehicles, some fire trucks (small), dump trucks, flat beds, and ambulances are examples. Freightliner buys the 6.7L ISB Cummins for installation in their line of medium duty vehicles along with some motor homes. These engines are built and tested on the same assembly line and use the same components in them. The only difference is that Ram clear coats the engine and Freightliner wants them painted Freightliner Red.

Also the 4500 model of truck for Ram is not a pick-up truck it and like the 5500 model are consider Cab and Chassis trucks that are sold under the Federal and Canada Rules as heavy duty vehicles. See the 2010 link to the Ram Body Builder’s Guide. http://www.rambodybuilder.com/2010/docs/dcdm/dcdmhd.pdf

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Old 08-19-2014, 07:30 AM   #17
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James and Cummins,
Would somebody please define medium duty?
LD? MD? HD?
I am lost here....I was under the impression that all mfgs have light duty trucks--Ford: 150/250/350/450. GM: 1500/2500/3500. Dodge: 1500/2500/3500/4500. Once past that, where are you?
Joe
Ford has the medium duty F650 and F750. They have come in the past with all of the international engines I listed except the 6.4. 2015 will be the Ford 6.7 diesel and 6.8 gas only. They also came with a Cummins and Cat diesel. Gm had the Top Kick line where Cat and the Duramax were used along with the 8.1gas. I don't know if Cummins was offered though. International and freightliner both have a medium duty line where Cat, Cummins, and Navistar engines (including the 6.4 aka maxforce 7) is/was used. Diameler/Chrysler/ Fiat/Ram/Dodge didn't have a medium duty line that I'm aware of.
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Old 08-19-2014, 10:11 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by wingnut60 View Post
James and Cummins, Would somebody please define medium duty? LD? MD? HD?
I am lost here....I was under the impression that all mfgs have light duty trucks--Ford: 150/250/350/450. GM: 1500/2500/3500. Dodge: 1500/2500/3500/4500. Once past that, where are you?
Joe
Different folks might have different definitions, but in the United States the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) makes the rules. The general rule is class 3 and below are light-duty trucks, Class 4 thru 6 are medium duty, and class 7 and 8 are heavy duty.

In the United States, commercial truck classification is determined based on the vehicle's gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). The classes range from 1–8. Trucks are also classified more broadly by the Department of Transportation's FHWA, which groups classes 1–3 as light duty, 4–6 as medium duty, and 7–8 as heavy duty.

Light duty

The Class 1 truck gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) ranges from 0–6000 lb. Chevy Colorado.

The Class 2 truck GVWR ranges from 6001–10,000. Class 2 is subdivided into Class 2a and Class 2b, with class 2a being 6001–8500 lb, and class 2b being 8501–10000 lb. So the F-150 is a class 2a truck, while the F-250 is a class 2b truck.

The Class 3 truck GVWR ranges from 10001–14000 lb.

Medium duty

The Class 4 truck GVWR ranges from 14001–16000 lb

The Class 5 truck GVWR ranges from 16001–19500 lb

The Class 6 truck GVWR ranges from 19501–26000 lb

Heavy duty

Class 7 truck GVWR ranges from 26001–33000 lb .

The Class 8 truck GVWR is anything above 33,000 lb. Any truck with more than 33,000 GVWR must pay a 12% federal excise tax (FET). F-750 with optional GVWR of 37,500 pounds is a class 8 truck and must pay the tax. Freightliner calls their M2 106 a medium duty truck, but the GVWR is over 33,000 pounds (up to as high as 56,000 pounds) so the Feds call it a class 8 heavy duty truck.

So that's the official definitions. But most of us don't consider the F-450 pickup to be a medium duty truck. Most of us think of a Peterbilt class 5 RV hauler truck as medium duty, but an F-550 RV hauler is still light duty in my mind. You have to get up into the F-650 territory to be a "real" medium duty truck (MDT).
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Old 08-20-2014, 09:06 PM   #19
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The initial question is what 3/4 ton truck would you buy and why? Someone said a brand having a medium duty engine/powertrain and the posting went out on a tangent.

Smokey, you continue to astound me with your knowledge of diesel engines and trucks, as I've been watching your postings for years on other forums.

Back to the original question: A 3/4 ton truck of any brand will do you a very good job of towing a 7500 lb. RV.

Do you know that Ford sells more SuperDuty diesels than GM and Ram combined? They own that segment of the market, but Dodge has been making some strides recently.

I bought my 2003 F250 Superduty 7.3 for the long run. And I wanted to buy from a dealership that will be around for the long run. If I need parts, I can get them from many, many sources at very fair prices (except for diesel fuel system parts.) There are hundreds of salvage SuperDuties within 200 miles in case I need body parts.

With a couple of economy downturns, many Dodge/Ram dealerships have changed hands, and they simply are not as high quality operations of many Ford or GM dealerships. Since their sales volumes are substantially less, many Ram dealers cannot sell as cheaply as a Ford or GM dealer can--and be successful dealers. I know our local Dodge/Jeep/Ram dealer's changed hands 2x in the last 3 years.

And there are relatively few Ram dealerships to get parts and service from. The new body style Ram is nice, but there are none in salvage yards to get parts from.

GM literally bet the company on the new model trucks, but many potential owners have been critical when GM's new trucks look just like the old model trucks--but with a little more chrome. They did a good job on the engines and the trucks appear very quiet.

I've looked at a number of identical "pull offs" between the big 3 trucks--1/2 ton, 3/4 ton and 1 tons--on Utube. For 2015, Ford remains the strongest pulling truck of the Big 3.

And after 12 years and 117K miles on my F250, it still looks and runs like new. I get 20 mpg on the open road, and it climbs mountain roads like a billy goat. It has the interior room of a limo, and not a single rattle in it. And on the used market, my truck is still a piece of gold. I'm sold on these trucks.
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Old 08-21-2014, 12:26 AM   #20
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Really? The Ram 2500 just won the 3/4 ton gas challenge and GM 3500 just won the diesel challenge in the latest Pickuptrucks.com HD challenge. Ford is too outdated even though they have a new diesel motor. The 4th one in 11 years. Maybe they got it right this time. Ford just simply has the best marketing out there and that's what sells.
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Old 08-21-2014, 06:18 AM   #21
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Diesel Power magazine performs a side by side comparison on equally equipped one ton trucks each year from the BIG 3 domestic auto makers. All do well in the testing and appear fairly equal on paper.

Having performed the test each year for some time now gives you the ability to find what year range best suites your financial needs and read the reviews from those years.

The answer to your question in my humble opinion is which ever one you like the best as they should all handle your needs very well.
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Old 08-21-2014, 06:41 AM   #22
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Really? The Ram 2500 just won the 3/4 ton gas challenge and GM 3500 just won the diesel challenge in the latest Pickuptrucks.com HD challenge. Ford is too outdated even though they have a new diesel motor. The 4th one in 11 years. Maybe they got it right this time. Ford just simply has the best marketing out there and that's what sells.
Really? One test. There's lots out there.
And Dodge has had 3 engines in 10 years.
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Old 08-21-2014, 09:38 AM   #23
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Really? One test. There's lots out there.
And Dodge has had 3 engines in 10 years.

How can you say that; as the 12V is still a 5.9L engine and the 24V is a 5.9L engine just a different head. The 6.7L uses most of the components from the tried and true 5.9L engine.


They have not gone up or down in engine volume such as 7.3L to a 6L to a 6.4L and then to a 6.7L each time changing block, heads and the turbo. Oh by the way I have to remove my CAB to repair the engine on my Ford why would I want to do that.


I would also to like point out that I do not trust Ford or GM on their tow ratings for their pick-up trucks. Since the manufactures have chosen not to meet the SAEJ2807 Towing standard as Ram has done and is meeting them for model year 2014 and beyond.

Jim W.

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Old 08-21-2014, 10:22 AM   #24
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. . . . .They (Cummins) have not gone up or down in engine volume such as 7.3L to a 6L to a 6.4L and then to a 6.7L each time changing block, heads and the turbo. Oh by the way I have to remove my CAB to repair the engine on my Ford why would I want to do that.


I would also to like point out that I do not trust Ford or GM on their tow ratings for their pick-up trucks. . . . . .
Jim: You're right about Cummins being consistent with their I-6 engines for 2500 and 3500 model Ram trucks. They put $100's of millions into the 1/2 ton diesel engine engineering for Toyota and had to end up selling the motor (at a discount) to Nissan for their future new model pickup. If something's not broken, don't fix it.

We know the great 7.3 had to be replaced by a higher tech diesel that would meet Tier III and Tier IV emissions. But the real story about the 6.0 and 6.4 Navistar engines has never been mentioned. Ford spec'd out the engines with a bunch of shortcuts (cheap), and the engines simply never met their potential. For slightly more $, they could have been great motors.

When Navistar got in a big cash flow problem, they raised the wholesale prices of engines by something like $1,500 each. Then Navistar reneged on paying their half of massive warranty claims on poorly engineered motors, and Ford withheld payment to Navistar for engines delivered. Then, Navistar refused to deliver any more diesel motors which threatened Ford's SuperDuty assembly lines and the livelihood of their employees. Ford had grown so tired of Navistar that they decided to use their engine expertise and build their own motor (the 6.7.) Truthfully, with their dominant place in the truck market, they were giving away big profits by not making their own engine in the first place.

Navistar continues to screw up big. They decided to build a Tier IV over the road big diesel truck without DEF, and they spent all their operating cash on engineering. They were unsuccessful, and big Navistar trucks are coming with large Cummins diesels--at much lower profits. They also purchased a large rail car manufacturing facility in Barton, AL to build medium duty trucks for specialized applications. They're building rail cars in Barton--not the first truck. It's a company that's in danger of being bought by a hedge fund and changed dramatically.

All the trucks' cabs must be raised to do engine work--as they're too tall to work on otherwise. Real diesel mechanics pull cabs all the time.

And I'm with you on overstated tow ratings. I certainly don't want to be in a jacked up, almost 1 ton truck with 25,000 lbs. behind me--and no weight or air brakes. They're all overrated.

The auto business is never dull. I'm just glad that anyone that purchases a Ford, GM or Ram 3/4 ton or 1 ton truck is going to get a great product.
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Old 08-21-2014, 10:29 AM   #25
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How can you say that; as the 12V is still a 5.9L engine and the 24V is a 5.9L engine just a different head. The 6.7L uses most of the components from the tried and true 5.9L engine.


They have not gone up or down in engine volume such as 7.3L to a 6L to a 6.4L and then to a 6.7L each time changing block, heads and the turbo. Oh by the way I have to remove my CAB to repair the engine on my Ford why would I want to do that.


I would also to like point out that I do not trust Ford or GM on their tow ratings for their pick-up trucks. Since the manufactures have chosen not to meet the SAEJ2807 Towing standard as Ram has done and is meeting them for model year 2014 and beyond.

Jim W.


Hey now! Don't let facts get in the way!

Oh and don't forget FORD own Cummins!
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Old 08-21-2014, 03:54 PM   #26
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How can you say that; as the 12V is still a 5.9L engine and the 24V is a 5.9L engine just a different head. The 6.7L uses most of the components from the tried and true 5.9L engine.


They have not gone up or down in engine volume such as 7.3L to a 6L to a 6.4L and then to a 6.7L each time changing block, heads and the turbo. Oh by the way I have to remove my CAB to repair the engine on my Ford why would I want to do that.


I would also to like point out that I do not trust Ford or GM on their tow ratings for their pick-up trucks. Since the manufactures have chosen not to meet the SAEJ2807 Towing standard as Ram has done and is meeting them for model year 2014 and beyond.

Jim W.

I would love to see a data sheet where the internals from a 5.9 including turbo and fuel system has remained the same through the entire HP and torque rise over the years and then the 6.7L is similar where the 5.9 started at 160 HP up to the 6.7L 385. Since the 6.7L and 5.9L does not share the same bore or stroke of the 5.9. That would mean length and height cannot be the same. Plus there has been block changes.

For 6.7L Ford engine repairs you do not need to remove the cab for engine repairs. The design has to be able to be repaired in chassis because many body builders add bodies over the cab. However if the option is available a cab remove is best as you can work on the engine while standing up and not hunched over the fenders and risking scratching fenders. The repair process is very nice and if done properly you wouldn't know anyone was in there. Unless what I seen at the local Dodge dealer last week.


By the way your 2010 does not meet the J2807 since Ram just started it. But online reports do show that GM and Ford does pull the loads exceptionally well. Even compared to weights of the trucks that meet those standards.

Please provide your facts.
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Old 08-21-2014, 04:02 PM   #27
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Hey now! Don't let facts get in the way!

Oh and don't forget FORD own Cummins!
please check your facts, Ford does not own Cummins.
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Old 08-21-2014, 10:39 PM   #28
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please check your facts, Ford does not own Cummins.
UH I was being sarcastic!!!!

Look at my handle Cummins12V98. I have been around these Cummins engines for a while and all the folk lore!
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