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Old 05-05-2013, 06:41 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by elkhornsun View Post
I have weighed my GM 2500HD diesel shortbed with the extended cab empty and with 3700 lbs. in the bed and only 100 lbs. of the load was carried by the front axle based on weighing the truck empty and loaded at a CAT scale. The COG for the load was directly over the rear axle.
Hi

You have it pretty much correct.

The only thing I wish to point out is the load in the bed of the truck is spread out for the length of the bed regardless of where the center of the load is. The King Pin load is concentrated 1 inch in front of the center of the rear axel in accordance with the instructions from Ford. This results in the front axel bearing more of the load because there is very little ďbalanceĒ load behind the rear axel.

13.5 k trailer is light compared to my 15.9 k trailer. When I reach the GCW of the TV with the fifth wheel hitch the front axel is at its max rating.

By the way I canít load my trailer to its GW with out exceeding the GCW for the TV. The heaviest weight I have pulled on the road is 23,200 Lbs. that is 300 lbs below my GCW rating and the trailer was only at 15,300 lbs (weighed without the TV).

I spent half a day at the scales to determine how I had to load the TV and trailer and stay within the limits the engineers from GM gave me. They said the same thing you did. QuoteĒ using the fifth wheel hitch mounted with the King Pin ĺ inch in front of the center of the rear axel as long as you donít exceed the GCW or any axel weight rating you will not over load the TVĒ.

It turns out that the limiting factor is the front axel. We are using the Silverado 3500 DRW crew cab Durmax diesel max GCW rating 23,500 lbs.

3665RE
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Old 05-05-2013, 09:49 AM   #16
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Thanks guys...I guess the most important thing I have learned is not to exceed the overall load of the TV and dont concentrate so much on the rear axle limit which makes sense. And....dont drive overloaded and be a smart a--. I guess I need to find out what I want to pull and go from there..However, with a 3500 SRW I should be able to pull most 5th wheels I have been looking at..10-11K dry weight.
Bob
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:06 AM   #17
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..However, with a 3500 SRW I should be able to pull most 5th wheels I have been looking at..10-11K dry weight.
Nope. Not without exceeding the GVWR of the truck. Dry trailer weight is a terrible weight rating to use for estimating how much trailer you can tow without being overloaded. Your max wet and loaded trailer weight is probably around 12,000 to 13,000 pounds without exceeding the GVWR of the tow vehicle. A trailer with 11,000 pounds dry weight will propably exceed 13,000 pounds when wet and loaded for the road.
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Old 05-05-2013, 05:07 PM   #18
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My 5er weights 11251 dry with propane, when loaded for Florida for several months it weights 12823.
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Old 05-05-2013, 05:22 PM   #19
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Hey Smokey

If he uses the GW rating of the trailer and 20% of that for the pin weight would he not have a good start on figuring out what truck to purchase?

Now I think I understand what you may be referring to. The published curb weight for our Silverado doesnít include fuel, driver, passenger and several additional items items that normally get put in the vehicle like pets, torque wrench etc.

In my case the curb weight published and the actual weight differ by just over 700 lbs. and that is with the backseat empty so the dog has a place to sleep if she wants. You could easley put an additional 400 lbs in the backseat with passengers.

This is why I canít load my trailer to itís GVW rating. I would go over the GCW of the TV because of the weight I have in the TV and all of that except the fuel is in the front seat.

The bottom line is this gentleman will need to do some serious research to figure out what trailer he can pull with the TV he is intending to purchase.

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Old 05-05-2013, 07:59 PM   #20
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Hey Smokey

If he uses the GW rating of the trailer and 20% of that for the pin weight would he not have a good start on figuring out what truck to purchase?
Good start, but still needs more info. What does it take to tow a 13,000 pound 5er with 2600 pounds hitch weight without being overloaded?
You need enough GVWR to have available payload to haul that 2,600 pounds of hitch weight, and you need enough GCWR to tow that 13k trailer, without exceeding any of the weight limits of the tow vehicle. So you must have a very good estimate of the weight of the wet and loaded tow vehicle, including 5er hitch but without the 5er tied on.
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Old 05-05-2013, 09:10 PM   #21
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Exactly....If I can get a good/educated idea of what the average loaded weight is of the TV I can then make a better decision on what TV to purchase. I always look at the GVW of the 5th wheel but also realize I most likely will not add more that 2K to the dry weight.
Thanks again for all the information..very helpful. I have learned one thing for sure; there are a lot of overloaded F250/2500 on the highways.
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Old 05-06-2013, 06:11 AM   #22
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Hi Smoky

You are correct.

I listed only the items you could or would load in the truck when leaving the dealer. Now add modifications- fifth wheel hitch 200 Lbs., running board about 50 Lbs, inverter to run you favorite appliance with while moving, blocks for you trailer wheels, etc.

Now you have increased the weight the dealer used to sell you the truck by 2,000 lbs.

Real easy to do.

The advantage with both the Ford and the GM product is if the fifth wheel hitch is mounted in accordance with the manufacturers instructions you no longer have to worry about over loading the TV as long as you donít exceed the front axel weight rating. Every one I have talked to that has taken the time to go to a scale and adjust their loading so they are not over weight has found the same thing. The front axel is the limiting factor on the TV.

I know nothing about the Dodge 3500 because at the time they didnít build a one-ton truck that had the GCW rating to do the job.

I knew when I purchased the TV that I would not be able to load the trailer to its GW rating. I load my basement very heavy. This is how I found out early in the game that the manufacturer of my trailer was less than competent. I requested a max loading for the floor of the basement and they could not give me that information.

My trailer has a 2,800 lb cargo capacity with a full water tank. I load over half of that in the basement. I tow with the water tank full because it is in the very rear of the trailer and reduces my pin weight.

The next thing everyone should do is weigh the entire rig at least once a year. They gain weight. I weigh several times a year and they GAIN WEIGHT. LOL

I have since reduced the sizes of the heavy item I load in the basement and I am now about 500 lbs lighter.

3665RE
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Old 05-06-2013, 07:32 AM   #23
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The advantage with both the Ford and the GM product is if the fifth wheel hitch is mounted in accordance with the manufacturers instructions you no longer have to worry about over loading the TV as long as you donít exceed the front axel weight rating.
Are you saying that it's impossible to exceed the GVWR of any truck (SRW or DRW, 1/2, 3/4 or 1 ton) so long as it's within its front axle GAWR????

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Old 05-06-2013, 09:16 AM   #24
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With that information it would seem that if the limiting factor is the front axle then the only advantage of DRW on 3500 is stability of the load.
Am I safe to assume that if the TV GVWR is 10,000LB and I have a fully loaded TV on the scales at 8000 lbs I have 2000 to put on the pin...and at 20% pin weight that would be a 5er of 10000 total weight giving me 20,000 GCWR?
Bob
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:30 AM   #25
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With all respect, you cannot judge vehicle loading solely by front axle GAW versus front axle GAWR. Even ignoring GCWR, the dually will have a higher GVWR and rear axle GAWR than a comparable 3/4 or 1-ton SRW truck; therefore, it can handle a higher pin weight without exceeding its GVWR or rear axle GAWR than the SRW truck. Since the manufacturer states that NONE of the ratings (i.e., GCWR, GVWR and front and rear axle GAWRs) are to be exceeded, you really have to look at actual weights versus ALL of these ratings to ensure that you're within the manufacturer's operating envelope for the vehicle.

In your example, the truck weighs 8000 lbs and the trailer weighs 10000 lbs, so your GCW (actual gross combination weight of truck and trailer) would be 18000 lbs.

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Old 05-06-2013, 07:00 PM   #26
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Bgall

The front axel on the 1 ton is rated higher than the front axel on a ĺ ton.

Rusty

You can only guess by using the numbers provided.

Use these numbers to try and purchase the equipment you need.

I have spent most of half a day on the CAT scales to determine just how much weight I can haul.

Fortunately by using the numbers GM gave me and adding the weight I assumed I would be carrying in the TV I decided on the 1 ton DRW truck.

This worked for me. Some say I purchased too much truck but I normally tow between 23,000 and 23,200 lbs. The few emergency stops I have had to make the rig performed well.

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Old 05-06-2013, 07:37 PM   #27
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I certainly don't question your choice of a DRW truck. That's all I've towed 5th wheels with since 1996.

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Old 05-06-2013, 09:47 PM   #28
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With that information it would seem that if the limiting factor is the front axle then the only advantage of DRW on 3500 is stability of the load.
Am I safe to assume that if the TV GVWR is 10,000LB and I have a fully loaded TV on the scales at 8000 lbs I have 2000 to put on the pin...and at 20% pin weight that would be a 5er of 10000 total weight giving me 20,000 GCWR?
Bob
Why not use the ratings the truck makers gives you. One size don't fit all here as all F350/3500 trucks have different payloads and tow ratings.

Ford makes a 10000 GVWR F250 and a F350 SRW in the newer gen trucks. The basic difference is in the RAWR as both can have the same front axles ratings.
Ford has over a dozen different GVWRs from 10k up to 11.5k and three different RAWR packages in the SRW line up. Some of these trucks will be fine with a 10k-11k dry weight trailer. IMO you need to be looking at the trailers dry and its GVWR. Actual weight will be somewhere in between. https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas.../techspec.html

I've posted a clicky for you on the 1st or 2nd page to search GM trucks. The clicky leads to a weights calculator that gives you the trucks front axle/rear axle and GVWR payloads with options and std equipment.

A '13 loaded 3500 SRW LTZ 11600 GVWR Dmax/A 2wd long bed ext cab and has a 5600 FAWR and a 7050 RAWR with a 4160 lb GVWR payload. Gm says the truck has a 17300 lb tow rating.

The newer gen diesel trucks can have the same FAWR in the 3/4 or one ton SRW or DRW. GM also has a 6k FAWR option for the 2500/3500 SRW and DRW trucks.
After all a diesel engine/tranny weighs the same regardless of the size of the trucks. The difference is the rear axle ratings.

Use the GM and Ford clicky and see for yourself the different payloads for the different configured trucks.
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