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Old 05-07-2013, 03:17 AM   #29
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Here is the bottom line.

You can use all of the published figures you want.

But the CAT scale tells all.

My information is from the CAT scale for both my 2009 Silverado and Canadian friends 2009 Ford 350 of the same configuration.

He questioned my statement about the front axel weight.

The CAT scale showed that both trucks would reach the front axel weight limitation and the GCW limitation at the same time without exceeding any other limitation when carrying the same load in the same location. Approximately 700 Lbs in the truck with nothing in the bed except the fifth wheel hitch.

I found this after my purchase of the truck and trailer. I was on the scales loading the trailer with 5 gallon buckets of sand to determine how to load the truck and trailer.

3665RE
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Old 05-07-2013, 06:55 AM   #30
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3665..I sure do not want to get into that situation. I think I have a good tool now to do some research on the TV (not that I have not already). But I never even thought about being over the GAW of the front axle. Good advice earlier to look into different configurations and options. I know that by the time I buy I will be getting what I need. The 5er(s) we are looking at have a loaded max weight around 13000-13500. I hope I can get 3500 SRW with the right options to handle that weight.
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Old 05-07-2013, 07:39 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgall2 View Post
The 5er(s) we are looking at have a loaded max weight around 13000-13500. I hope I can get 3500 SRW with the right options to handle that weight.
Good luck with that. I doubt you'll be successful. Maybe your estimates will show it can be done, but when on a CAT scale with a 13k 5er, you'll probably exceed the GVWR of the SRW tow vehicle. I don't know about the trucks with weak front axles 3665RE is talking about, but on my F-250 I exceeded the GVWR of the truck well before I was even close to the front or rear GAWRs.

My F-150 is a slightly different story. GVWR is still the limiter, but very little rear GAWR left when loaded to 100 pounds over the GVWR. Front GAWR no problem. In the middle of a long road trip with my normal load of wife and dogs and tools in the F-150, dragging a TT with gross weight of 4,870 and a hitch weight of 650 pounds, I was 100 pounds over the GVWR, 390 pounds under the front GARW, and only 10 pounds under the rear GAWR.
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Old 05-08-2013, 06:13 AM   #32
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Smokey

If the front axel limitation weren’t a problem then they wouldn’t put “sliding” fifth wheel hitches on some of the tractor’s for 18-wheeler’s.

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Old 05-08-2013, 07:55 AM   #33
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There's a big difference between a Class 8 tractor with 2 steer axle tires versus 8 drive axle tires and where the tractor's GVWR is equal to the sum of the GAWRs. In that case, you move the 5th wheel to get maximum allowable loading (or close to it) on each axle so that you can haul as much freight as possible - it's purely a financial matter. A pickup, on the other hand, has only 2 or 4 drive axle tires, and GVWR is less than the sum of the GAWRs. Rear GAWR is much more critical with the pickups as you start piling a on a load that's almost directly over the rear axle as the difference between front and total drive axle GAWR is much less with the pickups, and GVWR (being less than the sum of the GAWRs) can often be the limiting factor before either GAWR is reached.

Your front axle scale example is mathematically interesting in your specific case, but I respectfully wouldn't try to apply it across the board for everything from a Ford Ranger to an F-550 or 5500 tow rig. Each case needs to be evaluated against ALL of a particular truck's ratings.

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Old 05-08-2013, 11:36 AM   #34
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gents,
The 3500 TV I am considering has a GVWR of 11,600. Curb wight is 7305. Add 1000 lbs to that for tuck loading etc and that leaves me 3295lbs for the pin weight. If a 5er has about 25% on the pin I will guess I can support a 5er at GVWR of 13,180 lbs. The RAWR is 7050. If 40% of truck weight is on the rear axle that is 3322 lbs leaving me 3728 to add to rear axle. if 100% of the 3295 lbs goes on rear axle it is still not overloaded.
Am I looking at this the correct way...at least at this point in my planning/research?
Thanks
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Old 05-08-2013, 04:36 PM   #35
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Here are some real world numbers for you. This is my 06 Dodge 3500 SRW with our 2012 Keystone 38 foot bumper TT using Reese Dual Cam setup.

Truck Only with whole family and full tank of fuel
Steer - 4860
Drive - 3540

Truck(same) with TT no WD bars
Steer - 4400
Drive - 5100
Trailer - 7840

Truck(same) with TT WD bars on 7 links
Steer - 4780
Drive - 4600
Trailer - 8000
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:15 AM   #36
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Thanks for the info on the dodge. The weight is about what I had figured...yours loaded with family has 42% on rear axle...I was figuring about 40%. Very helpful. thanks.
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Old 05-09-2013, 11:31 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phenrichs View Post
Here are some real world numbers for you. This is my 06 Dodge 3500 SRW with our 2012 Keystone 38 foot bumper TT using Reese Dual Cam setup.
Truck Only with whole family and full tank of fuel
Steer - 4860
Drive – 3540
------------------
GVW = 8,400
=============

Truck(same) with TT no WD bars
Steer - 4400
Drive – 5100
----------------
GVW = 9,500
Trailer – 7840
----------------
GCW = 17,340
===========

9,500 GVW with trailer minus 8,400 GVW without trailer = 1,100 hitch weight
Trailer axles 7,840 + hitch weight 1,100 = 8,940 gross trailer weight


Truck(same) with TT WD bars on 7 links
Steer - 4780
Drive – 4600
------------
GVW = 9380
Trailer - 8000
--------------
GCW = 17,380
================

Difference in GCW is scale error of less than one half of one percent, which is normal.

4780 minus 4400 = 380 pounds or 34.5% of hitch weight distributed to front axle = higher than the 25% goal.

8,000 minus 7840 = 150 pounds or 14.5% of hitch weight distributed to trailer axles, which is lower than the 25% goal.

380 + 150 = 530 pounds distributed off the rear axle = 48% of hitch weight, which is really close to the 50% goal. (500 pounds difference in drive axle weight with and without the spring bars tightened is that scale error showing its ugly head again. Use either the 500 or the 530 for your computation.)

Conclusion: Since close to 50% of the hitch weight was distributed off the rear axle, your spring bar tension is close to perfect, so no need to mess with the number of chain lengths. However, your WD hitch needs to be adjusted to distribute a little less weight to the front axle and a little more to the trailer axles. Probably changing the angle of the ball mount to the coupler would do the trick.
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Old 05-10-2013, 07:01 AM   #38
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Rusty

I use the 18-wheeler because most people don’t know what a 14-wheeler is.

The 14-wheeler tractor would be next to useless without a sliding fifth wheel. 2 steering tires and 4 drive tires same as the light duty trucks we use for our fifth wheel RV’s.

Our light duty trucks have a dual use and are configured the way they are because the bumper hitch receiver puts a much larger load on the rear axel than the fifth wheel hitch.

I now have weighed a third truck, a Dodge. It does the same thing when the fifth wheel hitch is installed in the manufacturers recommended location.

I have these buckets of sand because I use them in my consulting business so I can load a fifth wheel trailer in the nose (not my normal use for the buckets of sand) until the TV reaches its max pin weight very easy.

Phenrichs and smokey

Loading the bumper receiver hasn’t anything to do with what I am talking about.

However because I don’t have any experience with the bumper hitch and heavy trailers the information you all have presented is interesting. I always wondered if those bars really did much good. I always associated them with sway control. My opinion on sway control is to load the truck and trailer properly and you wont need sway control. LOL

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Old 05-10-2013, 07:10 AM   #39
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Phil,

As I said, your results are mathematically interesting, but the facts are that someone who is going to try your method is going to be on a scale anyway. That being the case, it still pays to check actual weights against ALL the truck's ratings, not just the front axle GAWR (IMHO).

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Old 05-10-2013, 08:18 PM   #40
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Interesting

I have read back thru my post and I don’t see anywhere I advocated using just the front axel rating.

I have stated more than once when you do go to the scales and adjust your weight so you are not over any weight limits you will find your front axel is at or near it's weight limit.

I have constantly stated my information is relative to a 1-ton DRW truck with a fifth wheel hitch.

I haven’t consider the limitations of the bumper receiver because the only trailers I pull with that hitch I can pickup the tong and put it on the ball. I hardly have to consider weather or not the truck can carry the weight I can pickup with my hands.

The only post I can find that indicates anyone proposes using only the front axel weight is yours.

I will say it again. Go to the CAT scale it tells all.

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Old 05-10-2013, 09:33 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3665RE View Post
The only post I can find that indicates anyone proposes using only the front axel weight is yours.
From your post #22:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3665RE View Post
The advantage with both the Ford and the GM product is if the fifth wheel hitch is mounted in accordance with the manufacturers instructions you no longer have to worry about over loading the TV as long as you don’t exceed the front axel weight rating. Every one I have talked to that has taken the time to go to a scale and adjust their loading so they are not over weight has found the same thing. The front axel is the limiting factor on the TV.
Have I misinterpreted something here?

Rusty
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Old 05-11-2013, 06:34 AM   #42
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Hi

It turns out that the limiting factor is the front axel. We are using the Silverado 3500 DRW crew cab Durmax diesel max GCW rating 23,500 lbs.

3665RE

Hi

The statement in #22 is correct for the 2 vehicles I am referring to.

Nowhere in that statement does it say to just weight only the front axel.

Post #15 clearly states the vehicle I am talking about not a ½ ton or a SUV or even the 3/4 ton truck.

Use the CAT scale it tell all!!!!!


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