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Old 05-20-2014, 04:38 PM   #29
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Ditto on the above, + where is the proof on the Ford warning IH not to sell parts to Ford customers?

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Old 05-20-2014, 11:40 PM   #30
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Well... I don't mind the 6.0 bad rep. Because I bought a extremely clean 2004 f350 full quad cab with airbags that had 6.0 with 109k miles for only $8000 I put about $1800 in parts to "BULLETPROOF" it and couldn't be happier. you would be hard pressed to find any truck in the same condition for only $9800. I like to turn a wrench and do my own work so the 6.0 was a perfect choice for me.

In my area a similar dodge or Chevy would be over $15000 to $20000
You're right. That's a good buy. Sounds like your got yourself a nice truck.
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Old 05-20-2014, 11:42 PM   #31
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That guy is very funny. Some basic videos of his are good, but for the most part, they are crockery.
Yah think? He has been working on powerstrokes for more than 20 years and you think he's a quack?

I found his videos to be more informative than anything else I've seen uot there. But I'd be interested in a better source if you have a recommendation.
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Old 05-21-2014, 12:36 AM   #32
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Who died due to a 6.0L? That is the absolute first I have ever heard of that. Lets see your proof of that statement.
Ummm... your tone is rather defensive, or maybe aggressive. Dont' shoot the messenger. How am I to know "who" died? As far as proof, I'm fairly certain that you're perfectly capable of looking that info via whatever search engine you desire.

But since you asked, here's a few recent incidents just based on a remedial web-search look:



From that article: "ambulances that were dying in the middle of emergency runs."

This guy got fired for quesitioning his boss about an 6.0 ambulance that caused a patient to die: "

CBS Atlanta's Wendy Saltzman asked whistleblower Eugene Davenport.
"No, no. We are having mission failures pretty much daily, every other day," he warned.
Davenport is a former fleet manager for Grady EMS. He said he found himself on the unemployment line after he questioned his boss about a critical mission failure.
"I think the final straw was when I questioned him about a unit that broke down and the patient died," Davenport said.

AND:

And that's not Davenport's only concern. Each of the broken down ambulances he saw daily, he said, had the potential of being a life lost.
"I said, 'I cannot be a part of this. Somebody's got to find this out,'" Davenport said.
Davenport learned about our investigation from the inside. He said he was told not to turn over records to us by his boss, Grady EMS Director Bill Compton.
“He also told me if I let any information get out of our department I would be terminated," Davenport said.
When we asked Compton if Davenport was fired after questioning the delay that resulted in the death of that cardiac arrest patient, Compton responded, "I don't have any documentation that I have any such recollection of that every occurring."
Compton defends Grady's fleet as "dependable" and says they have nothing to hide.

OR:


The answer is, it depends. WE operate a fleet of 35 ambulances and 14 support vehicles. Historically we had operated Ford Type III ambulances equipped with the 6.9 litre diesel engines. They were bullet proof and would run forever. In 2004 Ford introduced the 6.0 litre engine to meet new EPA requirements and the problems began. We had purchased 12 2005 & 2006Ford Type III ambulances and two 2005 Ford Excursions with the 6.0 engine. The problems began shortly thereafter at about 30,000 miles with engine failures amongst other problems including turbo, higher pressure oil pumps & EGR failures. Ford introduced an extended warranty that gave an extra 24 months (60 months) and or 80,000 miles (180,000 miles)additional warranty at a price of almost $4,000/vehicle Canadian, which we purchased. I was criticized at the time because of the cost but it has paid for itself several times over. Every one of the 14 vehicles with the exception of 2 has had at least one engine failure. Some have had 5 engines in 150,000 miles. A recent example was a truck that had 150,000 miles and was on its second engine, which failed and was totally replaced under warranty. 1800 miles later the new engine threw a rod as the vehicle pulled into a hospital. It was returned to the dealer and another new engine installed. The new engine started once and never ran again. Another engine was installed (#5). Our vehicles are not abused and we monitor speed live with an AVL/GPS system. In 2006 we started to buy Chev Dura Max powered Type III's. WE currently have 11 2010 units on order for December & March delivery, which will bring the number of Ford ambulances left in the fleet to 3. The oldest Chev's have over 100,000 miles on them now with no engine failures. Was our experience an abnormality. Well Ford has sued Navistar, the manufacturer of the 6.0 and Navistar countersued for non payment. In the US the ambulance industry filed a class action suit against Ford which the industry won, but details of the settlement are sketchy. Ford is not offering diesel engines in the 2010 E model, only V10 gas. For 2012 there will no longer be a Ford E series van. In 2008 Ford replaced the 6.0 with the 6.4 (another Navistar engine) which they currently offer in the F series trucks. It has not been uncommon to go into the dealership and see a new pickup just delivered on the hoist undergoing an engine replacement. For 2011 Ford is introducing a new 6.7 litre diesel which Ford designed and is manufacturing in house. The industry has been leaving Ford in droves, the latest post I saw today was that FDNY EMS (City of New York) are moving from Ford Type I's to a different chassis, rumored to be Dodge. FDNY was running diesel Ford Excursions but have just purchased 80 Chev Diesel pickups for their Batallion Chiefs and EMS Supervisors, which will replace the Excursions. And Ford was the only manufacturer who did not go to the public trough for a bail out. Figure that one out!


There's plenty more out there.
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Old 05-21-2014, 04:55 AM   #33
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My opinion!
Having been an Ambulance captain, I see cars as a possible killer of people (around 40,000 each year).
A failure of an engine should not be blamed for a death. How was their maintenance. (We had a 6.0)
Not saying there was not issues that could be addressed to reduce failures.
There was an accident in our area where the fire department did not get to the scene in a "timely manner". Seems that if a rescue truck can not get to the scene of an accident, on icy roads, that happened due to icy roads, the lawyers step in. Or should that be a tire failure?

Fires due to exhaust, if used in the proper manner, I will give you. (No extreme mods or field fires allowed )
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Old 05-21-2014, 06:46 AM   #34
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Yah think? He has been working on powerstrokes for more than 20 years and you think he's a quack?

I found his videos to be more informative than anything else I've seen uot there. But I'd be interested in a better source if you have a recommendation.
Powerstroke.org for one. Most all the other diesel forums too.

Ask them about Bill and see what they think.
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Old 05-21-2014, 03:26 PM   #35
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Ummm... your tone is rather defensive, or maybe aggressive. Dont' shoot the messenger. How am I to know "who" died? As far as proof, I'm fairly certain that you're perfectly capable of looking that info via whatever search engine you desire.

.
Not aggressive but maybe when you speak out of your 6 things come off that way. The funny thing is is that you brought up emergency vehicles. I am the Fleet manager of a large medical corporation in my area where we have a large fleet of ambulances, ambulettes, and other support vehicles. I worry every day about an ambulance breaking down with a patent on board(and yes it does happen). We use medium duty trucks for the most part and they suffer a lot of break downs. I currently have 4 at the dealer for repairs right now. Much of the issues are emissions related but due to the tree huggers we cannot have a reliable diesel truck because of air quality. However I am looking forward to the new calibrations that are going to be coming out within a few weeks to reduce the strict emissions standards and allow for higher combustion temps with less EGR to reduce regens. It will not correct all issues because regens are very low on the issue pole but it will help.

When it comes to preventative maintenance on emergency vehicles, it should be a lot more strict than standard vehicles. What needs to be done is to determine what does fail and what can fail and at what service time. So what needs to be done is to replace that part before it historically fails. In the video it shows a Ford van. If that was the actual vehicle that did shut down on the run it had to be 4 years old or older. That means there should have been a very strong track record of failure rates and what should be done on a PM. Sometimes you cant catch everything and it also depends on the budget that they are working with. The right guys working on the stuff is key also. I got my job where I am because they needed the right guy to determine this stuff. The vehicles we had before the medium duty trucks were Chevy 4500's with the duramax. They were not trouble free by any means. Several turbos, several replacement Allison transmissions, all 8 injectors between 80-100K. Then there is the wiring issues. GM wiring is some of the worst I have ever seen.
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Old 05-22-2014, 10:34 AM   #36
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Powerstroke.org for one. Most all the other diesel forums too.

Ask them about Bill and see what they think.
Ok, I'll check it out. Thanks for the tip. That said, you know how forums go. There are always guys out there trying to submarine someone else's business or ideas. You should hear what all the diesel competitors in my area say about each other. You'd think they see the their competition as an AQ member or something. Some of the stuff said is just vial, most of it unwarranted.

But again, thanks for the headsup. I'll do the research on him per your suggestion.
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Old 05-22-2014, 10:57 AM   #37
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Not aggressive but maybe when you speak out of your 6 things come off that way. The funny thing is is that you brought up emergency vehicles. I am the Fleet manager of a large medical corporation in my area where we have a large fleet of ambulances, ambulettes, and other support vehicles. I worry every day about an ambulance breaking down with a patent on board(and yes it does happen). We use medium duty trucks for the most part and they suffer a lot of break downs. I currently have 4 at the dealer for repairs right now. Much of the issues are emissions related but due to the tree huggers we cannot have a reliable diesel truck because of air quality. However I am looking forward to the new calibrations that are going to be coming out within a few weeks to reduce the strict emissions standards and allow for higher combustion temps with less EGR to reduce regens. It will not correct all issues because regens are very low on the issue pole but it will help.


When it comes to preventative maintenance on emergency vehicles, it should be a lot more strict than standard vehicles. What needs to be done is to determine what does fail and what can fail and at what service time. So what needs to be done is to replace that part before it historically fails. In the video it shows a Ford van. If that was the actual vehicle that did shut down on the run it had to be 4 years old or older. That means there should have been a very strong track record of failure rates and what should be done on a PM. Sometimes you cant catch everything and it also depends on the budget that they are working with. The right guys working on the stuff is key also. I got my job where I am because they needed the right guy to determine this stuff. The vehicles we had before the medium duty trucks were Chevy 4500's with the duramax. They were not trouble free by any means. Several turbos, several replacement Allison transmissions, all 8 injectors between 80-100K. Then there is the wiring issues. GM wiring is some of the worst I have ever seen.
Wow. I had no idea the GMs were that bad. I mean I knew about the earlier Duramax issues but I wasn't aware of the wiring problems.

That was very informative, your perspective. Thanks for that. Sorry if I came across the wrong way (I think I was on my second glass of wine when I replied to your post... haha). I agree about stricter standards needed for emergency vehicles. I am in the airline industry. Everything there is on strict standard of service intervals. Planes are thoroughly checked before every ETOPS flight (over water). Many components have to be replaced after specified hour intervals regardless of the condition of the part. But things break so we have back up plans for back up plans and so on. I would assume the Emergency services industry is the same way. We train the pilots not to be hard on the equipment and to adhere to strict limitations on motors and other systems. At the end of the day though, a plane has two motors, and ambulance doesn't so I see the limitation they are up against. I have to wonder if the drivers are attributing to the cause. My buddy is the service manger and lead mechanic for a bus company that runs a fleet of detroit diesel powered charter busses. He helps me work on my equipment so we've chatted over the years about the issues he deals with. A lot of the time their problems are sourced to drivers who just don't care. He said he's lost track of how many time they've put gas in the tank (vs diesel). But the owner of the company pays near minimum wage for those drivers... so ya' get what ya' pay for I guess.

I don't have a 6.0, btw. I have a 5.9 CTD and a 7.3 PS. I am familiar with the 6.0 history though. Maybe not as intimately as a owner or fleet manager but my uncle is the service manager at a large Ford dealership and my cousins are mechanics there. When the 6.0 first came out I had a F450 7.3 PS. The slick market campaign Ford put on for that motor had me wanting one BAD (along with everyone else in my family). I sold my F450 and put in an order for one. Then my uncle called and said: "you may want to wait another year, we're still working out the bugs." Well, y'all know what happened after that.

My issue with Ford wasn't so much the 6.0 itself, it was their handling of the matter and their arrogance towards customers. Not a shot at any dealership per se, I just read article after article where owners were left in a lurch. I think if Twitter and other forms of social media Ford would have been more proactive (I don't use that stuff but it is effective in forcing companies to sort out their fickle customers). Of course, like most things in our country, it took a class-action lawsuit on the 6.0 to set the record straight.

Dodge is guilty of similar mis-handlings; the infamous ""53-Block" which was only recently successful with a Class action lawsuit. Other industries are no different. I had an emachines laptop that kept shutting down due to overheat issues. They sent me a new one then refused to follow the warranty when the problem persisted. Their legal prowess was no match for my interest level. I gave up. Then one day I get a class action lawsuit offering in the mail. Turns out my claims against their shoddy engineering was right all along. I have had to hire legal council against Citibank more than once. Their staff lawyers can obviously outspend me and are incredibly arrogant. They know that so the consumer is left fighting the big dog. They once sent me a letter stating I am $17,400 behind in my mortgage when every payment was made on time. They wouldn't resolve the matter until I hired a lawyer and he filed suit (it turns out, banks are incredibly fearful of standing in front of a judge). In the past year I have received two offerings to sign on to class action lawsuits against them. You'd better believe I happily joined up on that. One yielded me a refund of funds spent on one issue; while the other is going after them for erroneously putting flood insurance on my home when FEMA said it's not required. I had to hire a surveyor and pay $625 for an elevation report that indeed my home is above the flood plain (I have nat'l flood ins anyway). Then I had to do all the leg work to make my case, still they added refuse to refund the $2500 to my escrow acct. I was getting around to hiring council on that deal when I received a notice for a class action suit on that matter just the other day. So I suppose the legal process was inevitable in the Ford 6.0 case. It's just too bad that they didn't handle the customer more fairly in the first place. Many brand loyalists defected their trucks are still the smoothest riding (IMO).

Sometimes legal action is the only way to force corporations to do the right thing. I guess we can be thankful for lawyers in that regard (did I just say that?).
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Old 05-22-2014, 03:55 PM   #38
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cptgregger,

I appreciate your comments. To the best of my knowledge there is no inspection process like in the air plane or like in our helicopter side of business. We had a few "instances" with our helicopters and you better believe that there are people that look very closely over all the records. Due to HIPA rules I cannot divulge more information but I have stories. My boss wants the mobile ground side to be ran like the air side. That is the reason he brought me in. In fact I just talked to him today because I know I am spending a lot more money on preventative maintenance and repairs compared to the other guy that ran the fleet garage. His words were believe me we are doing ok and your doing as I hoped. Money is not an issue as long as it is justified.

One of the things were are doing now are paying to have the rest of the injectors replaced on our medium duty truck engines when one fails. After I started we had at one point 7 ambulances down for injector issues. I called in a rep from the manufacture and explained to him the seriousness of the issue and our line of business. There were some promises made by them but non have come true. So now when one injector fails(under warranty) we replace the other 5. I/we cannot afford to have a patient be in harms way due to $1500.00. Then on top of that people don't sue for a small amount money but usually there are 6 zeros at the end.

I personally would not have an issue with having a fleet of 6.0L powered vans. Because they are the lower HP/TQ rated engines they are less prone to head bolts stretching and other issues. However you can bet that everyone would have an updated STC bracket on the back of the HP pump, IPR would be replaced around 80K miles (I usually have seen them fail around 150K when I worked at a Ford dealer). Coolant changes would be a very regular basis with VC-9 flushes. Engine oil would not be more than 5K intervals and would likely use a high quality semi or full Syn oil to help with oil shearing to prevent injector issues. EGR valves would also be on a strick maint interval also.
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Old 05-22-2014, 06:56 PM   #39
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Nice to work for a company that WANTS to spend the money up front.
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Old 05-22-2014, 07:28 PM   #40
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My good friend has a 6.0 litre that has 41,000 miles. It has had the very best of care and maintainance possible. Last weekend on a short trip from Ohio to Charlotte.NC his engine blew in Virginia. Head gasket problems. $4000 to $6000 repair bill. To replace the head gaskets they have to remove the cab.
Steer clear of a 6.0.
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Old 05-22-2014, 08:16 PM   #41
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My good friend has a 6.0 litre that has 41,000 miles. It has had the very best of care and maintainance possible. Last weekend on a short trip from Ohio to Charlotte.NC his engine blew in Virginia. Head gasket problems. $4000 to $6000 repair bill. To replace the head gaskets they have to remove the cab.
Steer clear of a 6.0.
Everyone has a friend haha... sounds like his engine didn't blow just the head gaskets did. It's $300 for new gaskets $700 for Apr studs (to fix the problem) and $2200 labor from ford. And then the truck should be good. So plan the $3200 in the purchase price and you get a good deal
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Old 05-26-2014, 07:18 AM   #42
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I bought an 06 F250 6.0 new. I put a K&N cold air intake on it right from the start. To date with 196,000 miles the only thing I've done besides oil, tires, and brakes is the EGR cooler was cleaned, and replace two glow plugs. This year I added a 4" magna flow muffler, and SCT programer to tow my Excel 5th wheel, GVWR 15,500. I towed it across country and am getting 10-12 mpg. This is the best truck I've ever owned. My mechanic is saying the 6.0 could likely turn out to be one of the best engines out there. Of course the verdict is out still on the new 6.7. What I hear is lots of problems with the 6.3's. Good luck
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