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Old 07-23-2013, 12:44 PM   #15
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Back to the batteries, I highly recommend nothing but motorcraft batteries. I have seen way to many repeat alternator failures do to duralast, interstate, and to some degree Anderson batteries. From what I can conclude is the internal resistance is to high so the voltage is never reached that the PCM is looking for. This will cause the alternator to over charge and over heat that results in failures.
I don't think this could possibly be true. If the PCM checks the voltage with respect to ground, the internal resistance being a little higher should have no effect on the voltage it sees. If anything, a higher resistance battery would show more voltage at the PCM because it would be the bottom leg of a voltage divider.

More likely the design of the engine compartment doesn't have proper cooling for the alternator. Or if it has a screen, the alternator builds up too much caked on dust on the screen causing the internals to overheat. Then after it starts to heat up, you'll see solder joints go brittle and break loose.


But back on topic, some of our trucks are very reliable with the 6.0. But some of our 6.0's have had issues. If you're buying a truck today, i would get a DEF truck(adblue). The engines run much cooler and the exhaust flows much better compared to a DPF truck.
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Old 07-23-2013, 12:52 PM   #16
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AFAIK, all modern diesels use DPFs, including the new Ford Powerstroke 6.7L. DEF combines in the exhaust stream in the catalytic converter to reduce NOx. By doing so, the amount of EGR (which also was a NOx reduction methodology) is reduced, which certainly has benefits. DEF, however, has no effect on particulate emissions; the DPF is required to capture those.

In the case of the 6.7L Cummins, the use of DEF allows elimination of the NOx adsorber and the regeneration cycles it required, but it still uses SCR and DPF technology.

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Old 07-23-2013, 01:19 PM   #17
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I don't think this could possibly be true. If the PCM checks the voltage with respect to ground, the internal resistance being a little higher should have no effect on the voltage it sees. If anything, a higher resistance battery would show more voltage at the PCM because it would be the bottom leg of a voltage divider.

More likely the design of the engine compartment doesn't have proper cooling for the alternator. Or if it has a screen, the alternator builds up too much caked on dust on the screen causing the internals to overheat. Then after it starts to heat up, you'll see solder joints go brittle and break loose.


But back on topic, some of our trucks are very reliable with the 6.0. But some of our 6.0's have had issues. If you're buying a truck today, i would get a DEF truck(adblue). The engines run much cooler and the exhaust flows much better compared to a DPF truck.
Batteries with higher resistance will have a lower discharge rate and also charge capacity. In one of my hobbies batteries are critical and we typically choose batteries with lower internal resistance. In fact, our chargers will measure the internal resistance of each cell. If a cell starts to gain in internal resistance, the battery will be replaced. However, I have seen new alt burn up within 15 min with the hood up. You could smell the alt cooking. Replace the alt and recheck and the same symptoms, however before burning up the alt again, replaced the batteries with motorcraft and problems solved. It happens way to often.

As a side note, just yesterday I had a 6.0L with 275K on the clock with an Alt light on. It was not charging at all 10.4V. New alt and napa batteries. I installed my good test battery and battery voltage starting coming up to around 12.8. Disconnected the 2nd napa battery and 13.6V. This is all while the truck was running and never shut it down. The damage was done because the light was still on, but the alt was charging and the temp of the alt started to come down with only one good test battery that I use.
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Old 07-23-2013, 01:57 PM   #18
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We are just at 102000 miles on the truck a d replaced both batteries in the last 6 months with new Motorcraft batteries. Our problem has been diagnosed now as two melted areas in the wiring harness to the FICM and in the main harness going to the computer system. If the prices were not so out of sight I would be driving away rather than sitting in the desert until Friday some time.

Two different shops have worked in the area of the truck in the past month now, who do I go after on this. A total of 6 days stranded not to mention the repair expenses. I am certainly glad we did opt to buy the extended warranty now.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions, Phil
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Old 07-23-2013, 02:20 PM   #19
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We are just at 102000 miles on the truck a d replaced both batteries in the last 6 months with new Motorcraft batteries. Our problem has been diagnosed now as two melted areas in the wiring harness to the FICM and in the main harness going to the computer system. If the prices were not so out of sight I would be driving away rather than sitting in the desert until Friday some time.

Two different shops have worked in the area of the truck in the past month now, who do I go after on this. A total of 6 days stranded not to mention the repair expenses. I am certainly glad we did opt to buy the extended warranty now.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions, Phil
WOW I cannot believe that you have a damaged harness. I would take clear and detailed pics of the damage and area. Look for any signs of where the harness was pinched or damaged from the installation. Look for any missing or damaged heat shields. It may be necessary to compare to another 6.0 because if they are damaged or missing, you may not know.
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Old 07-23-2013, 02:49 PM   #20
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for what it is worth I am sorry you are having so much frustration with your trk! I had a lot of trouble with a MH DP and it made me go back to a travel trailer. That said, my 2004 Dodge Diesel Ram has 206K miles with nothing beyond expected wear and tear.

I hope to drive it another 100K and then replace it with another one. My buddy has been shopping and is set his sights on the 2014 Dodge!

Good luck with your decission and I hope your trip takes a better turn soon!
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Old 07-23-2013, 07:56 PM   #21
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psikes - I feel your pain. I had a 2005 F350 PSD that was the most unreliable new vehicle I ever owned. To all the "experts" with all the advice I say - when you pay over $50K for a truck you shouldn't have to do ANYTHING but the factory recommended maintenance. I followed the "severe duty schedule" for maintenance and still had the whole laundry list of troubles the 6.0 can produce.

My new 2012 Ram 3500 has been trouble free for 14,000 miles. I don't know what will happen in the next 90,000 miles, but I will never buy another Ford product.
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Old 07-23-2013, 09:24 PM   #22
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If you actually follow true maintenance for the truck, then you have a reason to gripe.
But I believe that all the old 7.3 and IDI guys thought it was just another one of those. Beat it up and it'll keep going.
There's fuel and oil filters from Racor only, a good, non cheap oil, COOLANT that most people never change or even less often maintain SCAs on, and so on.
So, sorry if I offended for assuming no one does maintenance like they should, but most don't because they simply do not know.
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Old 07-23-2013, 09:30 PM   #23
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Batteries with higher resistance will have a lower discharge rate and also charge capacity. In one of my hobbies batteries are critical and we typically choose batteries with lower internal resistance. In fact, our chargers will measure the internal resistance of each cell. If a cell starts to gain in internal resistance, the battery will be replaced. However, I have seen new alt burn up within 15 min with the hood up. You could smell the alt cooking. Replace the alt and recheck and the same symptoms, however before burning up the alt again, replaced the batteries with motorcraft and problems solved. It happens way to often.

As a side note, just yesterday I had a 6.0L with 275K on the clock with an Alt light on. It was not charging at all 10.4V. New alt and napa batteries. I installed my good test battery and battery voltage starting coming up to around 12.8. Disconnected the 2nd napa battery and 13.6V. This is all while the truck was running and never shut it down. The damage was done because the light was still on, but the alt was charging and the temp of the alt started to come down with only one good test battery that I use.
A battery with a bad cell or shorted cell will cause the symptoms you describe. If the battery was brand new, my guess is someone dropped it pretty hard at NAPA, or manufacturing defect.

But the internal resistance or charge capacity of a non-broken battery should have no effect such as you describe. The only reason for a good working alternator to drop in voltage output is if it's trying to provide more amperage than it's capable of. Which is usually a shorted cell in a battery. Or too many things hooked up to the vehicle, but in this situation one should consider an alternator upgrade. Once the vehicle is started, the alternator should be providing all the current, the battery is just along for the ride, and a higher internal resistance only means it'll have a slower charge rate and would only help the alternator in this aspect.(Ever jump start a car???? The battery at that stage usually has very high internal resistance and not enough capacity to start the car, but once started the car and alternator run fine and at full voltage).


As for the new alternator you saw burn up. I've seen that too, that's typically explained by one of the phases no having connection. It wasn't put together right at the factory, and losing one of the phases will cause the other phases to overheat and burn up as well due to needing to provide more current through each of the 2 left over phases.
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Old 07-23-2013, 09:41 PM   #24
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We are just at 102000 miles on the truck a d replaced both batteries in the last 6 months with new Motorcraft batteries. Our problem has been diagnosed now as two melted areas in the wiring harness to the FICM and in the main harness going to the computer system. If the prices were not so out of sight I would be driving away rather than sitting in the desert until Friday some time.

Two different shops have worked in the area of the truck in the past month now, who do I go after on this. A total of 6 days stranded not to mention the repair expenses. I am certainly glad we did opt to buy the extended warranty now.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions, Phil
What caused the wires to melt??? Wires don't just melt like that and if you are just replacing the wires you are only alleviating the symptom, not fixing the cause. Did someone do a bad thing and replace a blown fuse with a larger fuse to fix the problem???? I see this happen all the time and while it works in the short term, it'll cause wires to melt as well. Fuses are designed for the largest amount of amperage a circuit can flow. Then still again, you have to figure out what caused the fuse to blow.

Unless it was something like the exhaust rubbing the harness, i'd put a shield or something in front of it.
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Old 07-23-2013, 10:05 PM   #25
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A battery with a bad cell or shorted cell will cause the symptoms you describe. If the battery was brand new, my guess is someone dropped it pretty hard at NAPA, or manufacturing defect.

But the internal resistance or charge capacity of a non-broken battery should have no effect such as you describe. The only reason for a good working alternator to drop in voltage output is if it's trying to provide more amperage than it's capable of. Which is usually a shorted cell in a battery. Or too many things hooked up to the vehicle, but in this situation one should consider an alternator upgrade. Once the vehicle is started, the alternator should be providing all the current, the battery is just along for the ride, and a higher internal resistance only means it'll have a slower charge rate and would only help the alternator in this aspect.(Ever jump start a car???? The battery at that stage usually has very high internal resistance and not enough capacity to start the car, but once started the car and alternator run fine and at full voltage).


As for the new alternator you saw burn up. I've seen that too, that's typically explained by one of the phases no having connection. It wasn't put together right at the factory, and losing one of the phases will cause the other phases to overheat and burn up as well due to needing to provide more current through each of the 2 left over phases.
It is the same result with either of the batteries and this test is done on several other trucks. It is in fact the batteries that is causing the failures. This is very repeatable with many of the batteries that I have replaced. This is why I have a spare good battery to verify that the customer does need a alt and not just batteries. Internal resistance has a huge affect on charging and discharging. In the automotive side, internal resistance does not seem to be discussed because it typically does not matter in many cases and the cells are not wired in a way where we can measure them like in a balance circuit.

The alt burning up could make since but since another one was installed 15 min later and the same symptoms were occurring again, it would not make any sense. And like I said, it is very repeatable.

When I was working at Ford last year, I discussed this with one of the electrical engineers and he also agreed that this sounds like a high resistance in the battery issue. First you have to voltage drop the charge lead and ground to make sure that this is not an issue but so far I have not found any faulty wiring.
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Old 07-23-2013, 10:12 PM   #26
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Hi psikes,
I have a 2004 f250 6.0 with about 45000 miles and have not had any issues other than replacing the batteries.I do my own maint.but,I don't think that has anything to do with it.I may have been one of the lucky ones and got a good one.Sorry for your troubles.Good Luck with whatever you decide.
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Old 07-23-2013, 10:56 PM   #27
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All fuses are the proper rating. I am a retired Navy electronics technician and have a pretty good handle on such things. I do not have a reason as of yet why they melted but my suspicions lay with the improper maintenance done in New Orleans. In fact, one of their statements on the repair bill was, "performed shake test on FICM cable". The Dallas dealer had to do some repairs on the connector and I am assuming that between the two of them they ruined the connector/wiring harness and some of the pins shorted out causing the meltdown. The dealer working on it now will be closed tomorrow for a state holiday s will not get back to it until Thursday and the best guess for driving away is Friday.

I still do not get the few here anxious to blame this on me! I have done all of the required maintenance on this truck since I bought it and all maintenance was performed by Ford diesel mechanics. In spite of all that has happened I still do like the truck, I just find it to be highly unreliable.
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Old 07-24-2013, 10:51 AM   #28
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It is the same result with either of the batteries and this test is done on several other trucks. It is in fact the batteries that is causing the failures. This is very repeatable with many of the batteries that I have replaced. This is why I have a spare good battery to verify that the customer does need a alt and not just batteries. Internal resistance has a huge affect on charging and discharging. In the automotive side, internal resistance does not seem to be discussed because it typically does not matter in many cases and the cells are not wired in a way where we can measure them like in a balance circuit.

The alt burning up could make since but since another one was installed 15 min later and the same symptoms were occurring again, it would not make any sense. And like I said, it is very repeatable.

When I was working at Ford last year, I discussed this with one of the electrical engineers and he also agreed that this sounds like a high resistance in the battery issue. First you have to voltage drop the charge lead and ground to make sure that this is not an issue but so far I have not found any faulty wiring.
Internal resistance does have a huge effect on charging and discharging, making it slower. But it doesn't have an effect on the vehicles electrical system because the vehicle runs across the batteries positive terminal node, not through the battery. If you drew an electrical schematic, the battery would just be a leg that splits off of the main node, the leg would be a battery symbol, which can be broken down to a resistor symbol in series with a voltage. A higher resistor would show the reason for the slower charge and discharge rates, only a shorted(wire goes around resistor) or bad cell(lower voltage) would show why a battery would draw more amperage. Really only in those circumstances would it explain killing the alternator, because it would be a large load on the schematic.

We have a fleet of 50ish service trucks which travel all over the country. Many ford PSD's 7.3L and 6.0L of various years. We have all kinds of batteries put in from various dealerships and truck stop mechanics. Never had an issue caused by the battery. Mostly people leave something on, or battery loses capacity over the years and it's hard to start the truck in the winter, so we replace them. Personally i have seen a shorted battery, but the car wouldn't even start with the battery.
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